I personally prefer no temples, a bit more white and dropping TKS. Whatever build you go for, you have to have something to do with late game mana, an answer to moat (flyers, copter, ballista, Elspeth) and a ton of answers to shops.
Only played a couple of tournies since ballista was released, currently on one match loss due to tiredness - auto copied a chain when I already had an answer on the board. Can't beat a god draw from PO storm when they're on the play, but you can take game one off dredge - depends on your local meta.
If I was going to BoM this year, I'd happily take Weldrazi.
I've played the deck enough to get a feel for it, but honestly not enough to feel comfortable suggesting big changes. I'm also curious about a list that cuts accelerants and the Tezzeret package for consistency-driving cards like Preordian, and a totally different list that runs even more Tezzeret and Monolith for increased redundancy ... but I haven't played any of these variants, they're just things I'm curious about. I wouldn't feel comfortable saying they're the right choice moving forward.
When I mentioned intangibles, I meant things other than match-win % that might convince someone to play a deck. Outcome is a lot newer than Ritual-based strategies, which makes it sexier and "less boring" for some players. It's relatively straightforward to play which might make it look/feel stronger than a tricky deck depending on the pilot you're watching. It also makes very big plays. When it wins, it's not uncommon for a player to draw their entire deck, Mind's Desire for 20+ cards, or Tendrils for triple digits. Overkills with Paradoxical Outcome are more common than with other decks, which is impressive. Even if the deck had less total wins, the wins it has FEEL big, they stand out in your memory more than a strained 9-storm-tendrils - which means unless you're taking good notes, it's easy for your memory of playtesting/tournament results bias in favor of the deck.
I'd love to hear a counter-opinion from someone who has played the deck more than I have
@Essentialrennat Misdirection is at an all time low in terms of usage and Mind Twist is unrestricted! If you play competitive modern I assume you have access to Gyofs? When I first broke into vintage I played B/W Mentor with like 6 Durress effects and Cabal Therapies and a mind twist for the random blowout effects. If G/B is your preference you can try something with Gyofs, a similar discard package, Mind Twist(s) and Abrupt Decays.
@qq Yes, my mana base is very greedy. The goal was to mitigate the library with the two multicolor lands (Cavern of Souls and Mana Confluence), along with Deathrite Shaman. I've been enjoying the list very much, but I think that something along the lines of the gush package in Jeremy Beaver's list might be simply better than Painful Truths:
You'll notice that his manabase is rock solid compared to mine, having cut all utility lands. I tested a hybrid version a bit last night in the practice rooms and thought that the deck did very well. I did not cut the Cavern. It is sometimes awkward, but casting an uncounterable Leovold is backbreaking against some decks.
I did play Managorger Hydra, and it was ridiculous as a mid game threat, though I don't think it would work as well in a non-gush list.
I also want to note that I was at EE6, but that I went 3-3 drop. I wasn't as happy as with my results online, though the metagames are obviously different.
In the end, I think that the key parts of the deck are:
The obvious card advantage: Ancestral, Recall, Time Walk, DTT, Ponder, etc, along with some number of big Jace.
Interaction: Force, Misstep, Abrupt Decay, and other disruption like Null Rod, creature removal and Thoughtseize.
The part that's up in the air as far as I'm concerned is the ancillary card advantage engine. I've seen three variants:
Painful Truths - This can be a little slow and sometimes rots in your hand, especially against the taxing decks. Requires a higher land count. Advantages are that you can flash it back easily and it doesn't get hit by Pyroblast, but also can't be pitched to Force of Will. (Also, occasionally you get to draw four or five cards with tax effects out.) This is what I've been playing.
Dark Confidant - The best engine against Thalia and Thorn. Provides a clock while also generating cards. I don't have any experience playing Bob in this deck, but others have tried it to obvious success, and I'd be willing to give it a shot, though it does seem like the most painful option to me, and I'm worried about Walking Ballista.
Gush - Draws fewer cards than Painful Truths, but encourages a smaller, more solid mana base. People know why Gush is good. I really don't want it to be better than Painful Truths in this shell, but it probably is. Also sub-par against shops decks, but has the advantage of protecting against strip mine effects. I noodled around in the practice rooms with this last night, and it was excellent.
Anyhow, that's where I am with my testing. I sometimes post in the Vintage Magic Facebook group, but if this is a better outlet, I'm glad to switch.
Well, I'm a Dredge Player. If you change Black to White, you not as well just play Sylvan Mentor....
The Better Dredge Hate cards are, in an order of best to worst, imo:
Rest in Peace
Leyline of the Void
Surgical Extraction/ Extirpate
Tormod's Crypt/ Relic of Progenitus/ Bojuka Bog/ Nihil Spellbomb
Note that this is my opinion, not actual fact.
I'm curious which Dredge you're playing? Because in my opinion (from the other side of the matchup), Priest is one of my favorite cards against Dredge.
I play Traditional Dredge. Priest is pretty bad because it doesn't do anything to the Graveyard, it allows Bridge triggers, it allows Dredging, Flashback Therapies, etc. You can pretty much ignore a Priest by dredging into some bridges, cast a creature, then flashback a therapy and make Zombies....
Some of this sounds like deck construction. Why are you playing all these cards you need to play turn 1 along with Wasteland?
I agree with most which has been said in this thread, but I think this quote is particularly important. You've got to ask yourself why you're playing Wastelands in your deck. Is it to play a mana denial strategy? In some cases (combined with Stony Silence) it can be, but against Shops it's almost never correct to do so. And usually when playing a build like this it's not to deploy a mana denial strategy. It's often not even to make a tempo play but to hit critical lands; I usually see Wastelands as additional Strip Mines which many decks play as a one-of to hit an important land like Bazaar of Baghdad, Karakas, Tolarian Academy, Library of Alexandria or Cavern of Souls.
For what's it's worth, I wouldn't have Wasted in either scenario (and I 100% agree with BrassMan to let Thorn resolve in scenario 1).
I look at lists like this and just wonder if JacoDrazi isn't just better and possibly the same cost. But that is not why you are asking for help....
I think that mental Misstep, dryad militant, and Thorn of Amethyst should be considered. These cards are possible on turn one. point being is you NEED a turn one play. Dryad militant turns off Baby Jace, Snapcaster, cabal therapies, dread returns, and delve spells relatively well. Your biggest fear with this deck is Mentor and STPs (and maybe Oath.) MM helps against one of those. Mentor is just going to steam roll the deck. You have no way to come back from an early Mentor other than your STPs.
The other problem with a deck like this is that it is an anti-meta deck. What decks do you play against in your area or online? You can tune this deck to have an edge against Shops by playing maindeck Kataki and Null Rod. Against blue decks I would have 4 spirit of the labyrinths and 4 Thalia 1.0.
Just my 2 cents. Good luck!
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