Vintage Strategy

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Rules QnA

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@dr-j "Playing" is a more generic term that is used when the card you're referring to could be a land. By using "play" here, the Temporal Aperture allows you to cast the spell on top or play the land on top.

601.1a. Some effects still refer to "playing" a card. "Playing a card" means playing that card as a land or casting that card as a spell, whichever is appropriate.
Single-Card Discussion

Spoilers, New takes on old favorites

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I think to truly evaluate this card you really have to look at the entire class of Ophidians, and psuedo-Ophidians. We have a ton of versions of that card now. Just to name some of the ones that I remember seeing people play in Vintage at one point or another:
Finkel (Shadowmage Infiltrator)
Ninja of the Deep Hours
Cold-Eyed Selkie
Augury Adept
Dimir Cutpurse
Ohran Viper
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Prophetic Flamespeeker

Psuedo's:
Dark Confidant
Azra Oddsmaker (ok this one is new too!)
Pain Seer
Baleful Strix w/ Welder
Curiosity
Sword of Fire and Ice
Asylum Visitor (I was really high on this card)

Reverse Ophidian:
Hypnotic Specter and friends

Now despite this list being very long and not even complete, I dont think any of these cards are seeing play right now. That isnt to say that this card isnt playable, but it is to say that this card has to succeed in an area fairly saturated in with good cards that arent seeing play.

What it does better it seems is that it is a better clock than most of these other cards. It's also on the higher side of synergy with other creatures along with Edric, Ninja, and the new Azra Oddsmaker. Its also blue so it pitches to Force. So it certainly has a number of benefits that if you can leverage then it can be a better option than others.

What it does worse than others is getting through blockers, and it needs to attack unlike Bob, Strix, Visitor. Unlike Finkel or Selkie, it doesnt have evasion. Unlike Ohran Viper or Flamespeaker, it doesnt have a mechanic to punish blockers. So I think certainly it needs more help in order to trigger compared to these cards.

So where are we at in terms of a deck to maximize this card?
Plays Force of Will.
Plays Snapcaster, Clique, Trinket Mage and/or other creatures with CiP effects.
Plays enough high CC spells / Sensei's top to maximize damage.
Plays enough remove /pump spells to get it through blockers

It sounds awful close to wanting to be in an Outcome deck, except for the last part of needing cards to clear its path.

Vintage Strategy

Read Me! Vintage Strategy FAQ
• Brass Man

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Junk Hatebears
• Stormanimagus

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@garbageaggro All very good points. I will try to answer them based on my experience. One thing though before that is that I don't think the shop matchup is stellar but I would put it at above 50%.

The Ballista Problem - Sure Stony Silence is helpful but generally the Stony Silence is there for Ravager and Steel Overseer. Nabbing Ballista is just gravy. The way you really beat Ballista, I've found, is that you overload it with targets it must answer and hope they don't have a Ravager to give it insane amounts of counters. You do all this very early in the game by having a glut of 2-drops.

Why 6 plows matters. You are able to follow up a plow on their foundry inspector with bodys that make the game irritating for shops because they are now slowed by their own spheres. The Snapcaster decks that also run a lot of removal do not "just wreck shops" largely cause they run one of the worst cards in the format vs. spheres as a 4-of in Preordain. My list runs no such nonsense. I run Deathrite Shaman. Deathrite Shaman >>>> Preordain as a 1-drop vs. Shops.

This is better than Eldrazi because you have less anti-synergy with Stony Silence (ie you don't play or rely on Sol Ring/Mana Crypt and can survive your own Stony far more readily). You also don't run Sol Lands so this deck weathers a wasteland storm from shops far better than Eldrazi does.

In general, the way you beat shops is early tempo advantage. You also bait their ballista out with something like Bob, and then follow up with Kataki to slow them down or even pick off permanents. Also, one card you didn't mention but is actually decent vs. them is Abrupt Decay. It's a removal spell for most things you care about in their deck INCLUDING Sphere. Also, do not forget that Anafenza is a total house vs. shops because it prevents Modular and Hangarback Thopters from happening. The shops matchups is definitely tighter than the other 2 and if I find it too close for comfort I may add some more cheese for it down the road but for now, I'm ok with where it's at.

-Storm
Budget/Unpowered options in 2018
• Stuart

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A friend and I are brewing up some way to resolve a shared fate in a bad powerless deck. That way you get to play power, and your opponent gets junk
Survival Salad
deck tech deck discussion decklist survival hollowone • • wfain

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Also, if you manage to cast a Squee, he's a goblin so your rabblemath would need to be updated.

Mandrills is sweet because it can be cast for G, Goyf is sweet because he can become a monster under the right circumstances for 1G. Rabble costs more than both, but provides additional value past his own body. Tasigur is probably just a smaller version of Gurmag Angler in this list as activating his 4 mana ability is not ideally where you want to be. Both Tasigur and Angler require black mana to cast which is somewhat of a downside. If I was going to pick a dude like Tasigur, I'd probably just go with the Angler instead.

The deck may just not have enough surprise value anymore, and as people on MTGO move away from SB options that target shops and PO, the incidental hate towards creature strategies goes up. I have seen a ton more plows, peacekeepers!, and sweepers (pyroclasm, verdict, deluge) recently, and it doesn't take a whole lot to throw off our game plan. Survival decks are going to need to adjust and evolve, and won't be able to bank on people making bad SB decisions and not really understanding how the combos work for long.

I have been having a real hard time against Jeskai Mentor and basically any deck that runs plows and snaps with FoW. I have lost games where I dropped 12 power on board turn 2, and I have been ultimated by a JTMS more than once. Survival at its core is not a control deck, but also lacks the focused aggro plan you might see from a deck like humans or fish. This shoves it into a weird place between combo and aggro/control.
?

Vintage Lands
deck tech • • Guest

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Hello,

I have a tried this deck a little bit, just testing it out with a friend but have not tried it on mtgo yet. My question is whether or not the Grove of the Burnwillows are necessary? We found that often gaining the opponent life would matter, as it would make Lage take an additional swing to kill them.

Has anyone else encountered this problem? And if so, is it simply something we have to live with because punishing fire is an absolute necessity?

On mtgo the meta seems to be a lot of URx draw-go decks, not a ton of shops or dredge, survival here and there, almost 0 oath decks, played against it 1 time in the past month. PO exists too, but not in incredibly high numbers, I'm usually the one playing it myself, more often than not my opponent is on a blue deck. Not sure how I would configure the 75 for that, or if the deck would even be a good choice in that field.
Life from the Loam in Dredge
• Oestrus

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@ten-ten

I have not streamed in quite some time (a lot of issues trying to stream where I lived the last couple years), but may start again in a couple weeks after I finish moving into my new apartment.
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Bazaar Control! 2018
• YakuzaXRock

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@macdeath
Thanks.

Maybe the land idea should be tested. It looks a little slow and requires mana, which the bazaar deck is sorta slow at. But testing would tell. Usually you kill with colos not damage...

Gush is not as great in this deck as others, but it still has its tricks why it stays. You can use it as regular mana boost+against wastelands with a little minus as the opponent usually tries to kill your groves which you cant bounce. The gush lands can go to fayden discard or bazaar.

If theres a ton of workshop you can add more ancient grudges which is a fine card with bazaar and intuition. Theres just no room! You need a lot of blasts against leovold and control in general. Rebs are good right now, always been but stops many key drawing spells anything blue matchup wise paradox, oath mentor etc etc and good with fayden.
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Paradoxical Outcome - Deckbuilding Primer
• IamActuallyLvL1

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I have found 3-4 Cloud of Fairies to be a good card. It turns off Color Moxen into blue, is "free", and obv synergy with Academy. Helps a little vs Rod/Stony as Mana enabler. Can be a chump blocker in dire scenarios. Pitch to FoW. Get around Misstep.
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Enchantress Viability?
• Tittliewinks22

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@oestrus said in Enchantress Viability?:

It does matter when you're trying to lay the groundwork, and your bricks all fold to Misstep (e.g. Wild Growth, Utopia Sprawl).

As I indicated, I did not play these cards. Please read my reply entirely before responding. If you want to play 3 colours, you cannot afford to play these cards and get 3-for-1'd by an opposing Wasteland. The only 1 cmc cards I cared about resolving was Mystic Remora.
White Eldrazi
deck tech eldrazi • • Brass Man

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A few more recent Eldrazi finishes:
GodOfSlaughter's list is similar to the ones I posted a few weeks ago: we're seeing Spirit of the Labyrinth and Misstep, replacing some number of Smashers. Interestingly it's also running Lodestone, which has been kinda out of vogue. Espiatrianero's list is more similar to the lists @i_b_TRUE and I have had some luck with.
On a different note, what do you guys think of the powered Colorless lists? I keep coming back to Henrik Storm's EU Vintage Champs list as something I'd like to mess around with.
Best Dredge deck to build for testing?
• Prkchpsndwiches

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@oestrus

8+ pitch spells makes Outcome a breeze.
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Empty the Warrens in DPS Sideboards
• nevilshute

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@desolutionist Pack Rat was good before ballista was printed, now its just pretty bad in my opinion.

In general splashing 1 additional color for eather Mentor or Wheel and Empty is pretty easy and there is just a bit downside to it. However, my current build is pure UB and features tinker bot in the maindeck instead of Mentor or Empty. I dont really miss wheel a lot, i have to say, but wheel would definetly be the main reason to but a badlands in there again, not really Empty. However i dont object to empty as much as i did a few month ago, i can see it as a small number, what alienates (get it?) me is people playing 3 or even 4 copies.

Against Shops i rather board in a huge amount of bounce spells and aim to win with 1 of them resolving at the end of their turn, or try to win early with a tinker. ( i play 1x Hurkyl's maindeck, and 1 chain of vapor, and i bring in 3x hurkyl's, 1x Rebuild, 1x Echoing Truth and 1x Island. cutting mostly discard spells and defense grids)

Against most blue control decks i board in more defense grids and sometimes more discard (depending on the state of my sideboard at the time).
So generally i much rather board in cards that force through my 2 main win cons (tendils and bot) instead of boarding in additional win cons.
Yawgmoth's Storm
storm • • Aelien

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Cheers @Hrishi and @5space ! That was my intuition - I value being able to fetch basics, and a Scrubland seems pretty bad.
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Goblins, an Undervalued Tribe in Vintage
• msg67183

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@ambivalentduck said in Goblins, an Undervalued Tribe in Vintage:

@13nova said in Goblins, an Undervalued Tribe in Vintage:

Cockatrice is a great place to test. There's not another electronic platform that 90% of the people who play vintage use. Nope. Just cockatrice.

I'm not a big fan of renting digital cards. It's kind of dubious to invest in an online platform when the content owner you're renting from is actively investing in a new platform and won't move your cards over onto it. Just sayin'...

Oh. I get it. I don't play on MTGO anymore either for similar reasons. Renting cardboard. But I don't feel cockatrice is a great testing platform either.
Blue Jund
• NBA84

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@bleedth3sky the faux pas wasn't in the logic of having a basic in the board, but rather fetchlands in the main that cannot fetch for it.
Selkie Strike(s). . . AGAIN!
• Stormanimagus

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@topical_island I cut it back in 2010/2011 when I played this deck a lot it was very good back then. It really helped in the mirror since this deck was fairly heavily played at that time. I think now you would just lose to PO if you cut the FOW.
Why is Arlinn Kord played in Oath of Druids?
• brianpk80

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@zaefermalkav said in Why is Arlinn Kord played in Oath of Druids?:

Great article!!!

I'm one of that guys that use Airlinn Kord just because you used it. After reading this i have a new perspective of how important she is.

Thanks!

You're welcome. It's a honor to have the trust of the community and players like you.
Bazaar of Baghdad beyond Dredge
• moorebrother1

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@thewhitedragon69 Thats a very different take as I said we avoid serum powder. we can have busted bazaar draws but we can play the long game and not just lose if we cant mull to bazaar. we also don't have to take up sideboard space with hollowones and gurmags as they are already mainboard.

Graf diggers is not a very good choice of grave hate it's worth mentioning leyline as that shuts down squee/bazaar as well as survival combo kills yet we can still pull thru. Grafdiggers we just cast decay or manglehorn as we can still fill our grave with impunity. The opponent didn't "not" do anything just that casting 2 mana preordains into 4 mana dack is great vs hollow one not vs hatebears.
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How can I build a playable mono blue control(or combo) deck ?
• iloveblue

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@5space said in How can I build a playable mono blue control(or combo) deck ?:

@macdeath said in How can I build a playable mono blue control(or combo) deck ?:

Mono blue is not worth it for a combo deck since without the black tutors you loose a lot of consistency. You want a deck with redundant pieces. I would suggest revisiting the Back 2 basics mono blue control with pwalkers and versatile blue creatures (like Consecrated sphinx, Torrential gearhulk, Vendillion clique, Snapcaster mage, trinket mage ...) In today's meta you can use Dismember or Propaganda/energy flux as your creature/artifact answers and have a strong counter package with 3/4 mana drains.

How about High Tide? Probably a splash would be good, but High Tide is quite consistent in other formats. I remember reading this back in the day, but it's quite dated:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/13186_Tsunami_Warning_Bringing_High_Tide_to_Vintage.html

High tide is barely playable in Legacy. You could build a completely broken vintage high tide for sure, is that deck good? No (believe me i've tried).
The deck will have to be filled with "do nothing" cards which are not "must counters" for other blue decks. You basically end up with a deck similar to the old Gush storm decks except you are not favored against other blue decks (which defeats the whole purpose).

Off the top of my head, here is a starting point for a high tide list in vintage:

MD:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus Petal

1 Library of Alexandria
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Flooded strand
2 Polluted delta
4 Island

1 Monastery Mentor

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Brain Freeze
1 Dig through Time
4 Frantic Search
4 High tide
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of will
4 Mental misstep
1 Mystical tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant scroll
1 Mind's desire
4 Preordain
1 Ponder
3 Time Spiral
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

SB:
3 Containment Priest
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Fragmentize
1 Plains
1 Balance
1 Flusterstorm
2 Stony Silence
Bomberman 2017
• enderfall

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From what I see, most players not familiar with Bomberman, try and add the combo to a blue control shell, or cram three decks into one. That might work here and there, but in that case, why even go Bomberman?
Just my two cents.
Also, more Jace, The Mindscultor/ Sensei's D. Top, over cantrips and Snapcaster in this deck is best. Jtms IS the back-up plan. Tinker->BsC is good post-board against specific MUs but I wouldn't do it main. Too much tempo loss. The games where you would win with Tinker, you could've won through Bomberman/Jace anyway.