@botvinik doomsday is definitely a tough matchup, for me at least it is less frustrating to play against than tinker and it has also fallen out of the meta a bit compared to where it was so I wasn't really thinking too much about it but I would still say that tinker is a worse matchup for jund than doomsday and more relevant in a discussion of the current meta.

That said, while jund does not have spheres or forces, and it is difficult for us to beat a turn one nut draw from doomsday, I think we still have the tools necessary to compete in the doomsday matchup. In my experience mana denial through wasteland and collector ouphe can be very effective since doomsday is running on very few lands. Collector ouphe especially forcing pass the turn piles most of the time can be very relevant since you have some good clocks. Disruption like opposition agent makes it hard for them to combo if you can make it through the first turn or two and you can ramp to it with deathrite shaman. Postboard cards like mindbreak trap can help shore up the early turns. Endurance has also been a huge improvement to the matchup.

@moorebrother1 said in Control decks:

@moorebrother1 The issue with the deck is that the deck does not do a good job at attacking any particular arch-type or strategy in the format.

As far back as M10 I remember hearing this from guys like Rakso, Menendian, Zherbus et al. and so if you feel this way, it's just the usual sentiment for control; ironically, that was at a time when control was still at its peak especially for skilled players. Just looking at some of these new decks drops my jaw. Who remember's Tan's builds from 20 years ago? Abyss, Moat, and Morphling. And then we moved on to some other crazy crap and routine use of balance to address oath/fittest, somewhere in the mix of all that people started running kaerevek's torch as a secondary win against FoW. Somewhere along that line workshop hit with Chalice and we went back to more traditional wins with colossus and added REB/Pyroblasts, some guys went full tilt with 4 in the maindeck and another 4 in the sideboard and welders. I left right around the time painters was a thing and that was the beginning of the re-emergence of control-combo. Pivoting to agressive combo to quickly win the game vs. Control lock like the "Good ole days."

That's when everyone was crying Vintage hit "Critical Mass." Hah! Far from it!

I did see a few posts above it was mentioned about "having the right play" at the right time and that will always hold true for control. It's rarely a proactive deck; it's a constant reactive chain that requires intuitive solutions and meticulous setups for the win.

Consider the draw engines in the evolution: Fact or Fiction, Gifts Ungiven, Divining Top, Brainstorm, Gush.They were all effective for their time period albeit a bit slow sometimes. I think we're about as streamlined as it gets on that in the current era.

If you're looking for the next Moderately stable evolution of control, you'll need to get the timeline and progression down like the back of your hand and build from scratch. That's how the "Masters" have always edged it out. I have not yet set out to see the new builds yet in action from a decade of walking away from the game.

I hope that's helpful to your quest. God Bless.

Thanks for the feedback!

I tried the non-artifact version with some not great, but still promising results. The Black Blue version plays a lot like a Blue Cantrip control (Xerox) deck. The issue is that there is little to no remove main deck and you need to set up the combo before you die relatively quickly. Playing the deck this way is VERY similar to Doomsday and it is extremely skill intensive as I saw in my results. I had a lot of very close game 3s and was not able to convert, I need to get a bit better at the deck and the format.

I am looking at 3 versions of the deck now. The black blue control version, the black blue artifact version I played in the Melee and a Blue White version with removal and main deck Rest in Peace. I also made a Mono-blue list to compare and contrast.

I still think there is a different and unique deck here that is a contender, most likely still a tier 2 deck to play if you don't like Doomsday but you want to play some fun games.

Here is my 1-4 list. I hope to improve my results over the week and I will continue to update the thread

1 Demonic Consultation
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Gush
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Dig Through Time

2 Chain of Vapor
3 Paradigm Shift
4 Thassa's Oracle
4 Preordain

4 Force of Will
4 Flusterstorm
2 Daze
1 Force of Negation
1 Mental Misstep

4 Relic of Progenitus

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire

2 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
5 Island
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard
4 Sedgemoor Witch
3 Steel Sabotage
2 Test of Talents
2 Fatal Push
1 Eliminate
3 Tormod's Crypt

@LieNielsen I'm certain you are an OS/MS player busting out the land tax/scroll rack/armageddon combo, lol. For Vintage...maybe. While that list doesn't seem particularly bad as a white hatebears deck, the vortex seem like the weakest card of the list.

I don't typically see bazaar in a whitebears list, and I think the combo angle of it is a bit slow for what most vintage decks do. I don't think the card is completely useless, but I do think its applications in the majority of the vintage meta is limited at best. Requiring multiple lock pieces to make this playable seems suspect.

Splashing green for something like collector ouphe/FoV just seems better to me. If it has to be monowhite, I'm thinking containment priests or null rods serve that slot better. THAT list looks like it wants to be playing turn 1 land tax/scroll rack (which is iffy in Vintage anyway), so a second land drop could be your singleton bazaar (with only land tax as combo?) or any 2nd mana to cast a real threat or heavy lock piece like null rod. You might snipe a mox and then go on a land-kill plan, but it seems unlikely to be a consistent field-wrecker to me.

I don't mind that detention vortex can fragmentize or plow and MORE...it's the many times where this will do either effect poorly or LESS than other options.

I may be wrong and this might be a 1-mana banishing light...I just don't see it in any reliable form without a total build-around. And I think there are far more busted cards to build around if you're jumping through hoops.

@botvinik You mean the Brassman quote in my signature? It's from the Team Serious Deathstar chat. I thought it was hilarious.

@brass-man said in [LEG] Greed:

If you're reading this and you're thinking "but trolling is funny!". Just fucking leave.

Generally a well put and thought out wall of text as usual. However point of order:
Trolling is funny not infrequently but TMD is not the place for it. Trolling is in a very direct way an attack: I am trying to hurt you or your social standing through the power of the internet and if you bite I can employ a complete lack of standards or decency and a fair understanding of how the platform works to do that. (this explanation is a bit of an extremization but less drastic cases differ in intensity not in function) This is unpalatable, when not targeted at someone you truly revile, but it can certainly be funny however you should never lose sight of what you are actually doing. Trolling is a poor fit for TMD because it lacks truly reprehensible people to target and if you are targeting a person at random you are just engaging in indirect sadism.

@serracollector yes, hollow one still has its cost reduction even if you play it from another zone.

I think in a format like Modern this may make boros blitz a thing, but not here.

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goblin Guide
4 Clever Lumimancer
4 Goblin Bushwacker
4 Swiftspear

4 Lightning bolt
4 Boros Charm
4 Lava dart
4 Searing Blaze
4 Skewer the Critics

12 Fetches
4 shocks
4 Basics

@taef yeah, if you're finding vine off OUAT post-bazaar it's probably because there wasn't anything else in those 5 cards.

@botvinik I don't see the correlation. GS is an instant, replaces itself, and can speed you up a turn...this is a sorcery, conditional on a worthwhile target (though there are tons in vintage) and doesn't advance your own gameplan. This is also not blue/green, so it doesn't get the "pitches to force" bonus that has become so key to Vintage.

@darkspiredragon
Spirit of the labyrinth is called hullbreacher now.

The cool part about crucible and bridge in ravager shops is
A) You can't get locked under your own bridge as long as you have a ravager in play to eat it and
B) You don't need to attack to win especially if you have a buried ruin because you can just ballista people.

You can also rent cards using manatraders (which I believe you can do using tix though someone who uses their service would know better than me), have access to several Vintage decks, and actually play the game.

I feel that is better advice to give to someone who came here looking to get into Vintage rather than telling them to buy Sui Chis....

Has anyone tested it in a landstill variant? I always used snappy in my versions, and sometimes just flashing in a dude, then dropping standstill was a win. With this guy, even breaking your own still could just give you 3 petals.

@chronatog

If I planned to run prop I would rather just run moat and be done with it.

Thank you I will try it that does seem better, I will test and share the results.