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Vintage Strategy

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  Preordain in U/R aggro
  • John Cox

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  I have been thinking a lot about this deck and how it is played. You = need the Preordains to fix your mana base. If you are playing the Wasteland version then you have 6 fetch lands, 4 Wastelands, 1 Strip mine and 6 mana producing lands and 1 Library.

  Preordain helps you fix that draw to get what you need when you need it and it also allows you to flip your Delver.

  If you cut the Delver and focus on playing Young Pyromancer and Snapcaster Mage then Preordain is a flashback target to get more cards if you do not have anything better. Then, there is the blue stew aspect of using cantrips to draw into delve spells.

  I do not think that they slow you down. They get you Xerox, if you do not want that then you may want to get into a more disruptive Hatebear style deck.

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  Help with Pitch Dredge
  dredge proxy fowchorid fun hollowone • • Rat3dE

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  Do you guys have any advice for me? I know that @vaughnbros and @BlindTherapy have both already given me some, but if any of you guys have any more suggestions I would be more than happy to hear them.

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  Counterspells
  • moorebrother1

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  @dunnydee I you have a deck with more threats or disruption that is a good strategy. The issue with Xerox v Xerox is not just card advantage but tempo and card draw. If someone can get a Jace or Dack through and you cannot answer it, they you will lose in 2 turns to their tempo.

  If you are on Oath or PO then losing a FOW is not the worst idea depending on how you manage the board. If I'm on Oath and board in 2 uncounterable creatures then I may drop an FOW. If I'm on PO and I bring in 3 defense grid then I may drop an FOW, but that is very situational.

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  Goblins, an Undervalued Tribe in Vintage
  • msg67183

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  @ambivalentduck

  I've been playing this. It can use some tuning but it seems fun.

  // Vintage Goblins Aggro

  // 60 Maindeck
  // 5 Artifact
  1 Black Lotus
  1 Mox Ruby
  3 Null Rod

  // 32 Creature
  3 Earwig Squad
  4 Goblin Lackey
  4 Goblin Matron
  3 Goblin Ringleader
  1 Stingscourger
  3 Simian Spirit Guide
  1 Goblin Chainwhirler
  4 Warren Instigator
  3 Goblin Warchief
  1 Goblin Chieftain
  1 Krenko, Mob Boss
  1 Goblin Trashmaster
  2 Goblin Cratermaker
  1 Gempalm Incinerator

  // 3 Instant
  3 Mental Misstep

  // 20 Land
  4 Cavern of Souls
  5 Mountain
  2 Badlands
  4 Wooded Foothills
  4 Wasteland
  1 Strip Mine

  // 15 Sideboard
  // 6 Artifact
  SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
  SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt

  // 5 Creature
  SB: 1 Goblin Chainwhirler
  SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
  SB: 2 Goblin Cratermaker
  SB: 1 Goblin Trashmaster

  // 4 Enchantment
  SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

  It's a Lackey/Instigator based build that tries to cheat stuff into play. Not sure about the right configurations but having 8 enabler seem good. The new Legion Warboss and Rabblemaster also seem like theyd be good pay-off spells. Maybe even Piledriver.

• 

  How do we bring prison decks back without breaking the format?
  • moorebrother1

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  To be honest the real thing keeping prison decks out of the meta is mainly Aggro shops, it's just way more efficient and consistent.
  It's kind of like the comparison between landstill and jeskai, why try to completely control the game over many turns instead of just controlling the game long enough to win before your opponent has time to recover.

  They would have to restrict some aggro pieces to make Workshop Prison a viable archetype again

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  Mono Blue Paradoxical Outcome
  • moorebrother1

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  @mediumsteve Your points are very good. And, if I were just playing in a league on MTGO or playing at a small local event I would probably think about a 3 color version.

  I have tested many iterations of the deck and I have to emphasize that if you are playing more than 6 rounds consistency is key. Some people will do extremely well with 3 colors but I have found that against Shops and Jeskai you need to be very consistent. I strongly believe that a 2 color build is good but the single color build is just more consistent.

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  LD/Mana Denial, thoughts and Discussion
  • Serracollector

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  If you want to deploy a mana denial strategy, land destruction is outclassed by taxing effects. The reason being that destroying a land takes away 1 and only 1 mana, while a taxing effect takes away n mana, where n is the number of spells cast.

  So basically Sphere effects are better than Sinkhole effects. If you want more Wasteland effects, I would turn towards Ghost Quarter rather than Assassin's Trophy.

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  Terrible brew idea! DrainTwist!
  • nungnum

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  Thanks everyone for the feedback! I decided that adding more artifacts and white for mentor + swords would be worth playing, I will add some results after testing

  Mainboard

  1x Ancestral Recall
  1x Black Lotus
  1x Blightsteel Colossus
  1x Brainstorm
  1x Demonic Tutor
  1x Dig Through Time
  2x Flooded Strand
  1x Flusterstorm
  4x Force of Will
  2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
  1x Karn, Scion of Urza
  1x Library of Alexandria
  1x Mana Crypt
  4x Mana Drain (LEG)
  4x Mental Misstep
  3x Mind Twist
  2x Mission Briefing
  2x Misty Rainforest
  1x Monastery Mentor
  1x Mox Jet
  1x Mox Opal
  1x Mox Pearl
  1x Mox Sapphire
  1x Mystical Tutor
  1x Paradoxical Outcome
  3x Polluted Delta
  2x Scalding Tarn
  1x Seat of the Synod
  1x Sol Ring
  1x Strip Mine
  1x Supreme Verdict
  3x Swords to Plowshares
  1x Tendrils of Agony
  1x Time Walk
  1x Tinker
  1x Treasure Cruise
  2x Tundra
  2x Underground Sea

  Sideboard

  2x Chain of Vapor
  4x Hurkyl's Recall
  4x Leyline of the Void
  2x Mindbreak Trap
  2x Supreme Verdict
  1x Swords to Plowshares

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  Graveyard and the graveyard hate
  • moorebrother1

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  @brass-man it might be that snapcaster and delve spells are better vs crypt effects than Yawgwill, etc are.

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  Discard spells
  • moorebrother1

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  Here's a cute data point, for what it's worth. I spent most of the day today testing some Battlebond tech @Aelien . We weren't explicitly trying to react to this thread, but our results are probably relevant to the discussion

  I was playing a controlly Grixis deck with 4 Mental Misstep and a Mind Twist

  Aelien was playing a stormy deck with 7 Duress/Thoughtseize effects.

  The Mind Twist was very good for me, and the Duress effects were very good for Aelien. At no point were either of us sad to be running those cards. I think these cards are still quite good against Combo, reasonably good against Slow Control, fine against Tempo Control, and bad against Workshops and Dredge. I think what one does with a Duress is so different than what one does with a Mind Twist that you have very different requirements for wanting them, and I think what one does with Hymn to Tourach is just something no Vintage deck wants.

  Ultimately I think if you're just looking at playing one of Ravager Shops/Jeskai Mentor/Esper Outcome/Inferno Oath/Dredge, in a field that consists mostly of Ravager Shops/Jeskai Mentor/Esper Outcome/Inferno Oath/Dredge, discard effects just aren't the best option over alternatives (with the exception of Cabal Therapy, possibly Unmask out of Dredge decks). That's going to include most players in most metagames ... but I do think there are reasonable decks outside that list, and reasonable metagames that diverge from that list, in which Duress/Thoughtseize/Mind Twist are good choices. Hymn to Tourach, I think, won't make the cut in anything reasonable, and I can't think of any other discard effects that are particularly notable.

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  Gifts and Intuition Piles.
  • Sovarius

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  @sovarius I dabbled with noxious in a non-gifts deck, wasn't impressed and cut it easily.

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  How are you training for Eternal Weekend?
  • moorebrother1

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  I'm firing up a Vintage league over the month of October locally, allowing proxies. About 7 solid so far up to maybe 12 depending on the next few days. We might do round robin, which sounds like a ton of matches, but this actually allows us to play at leisure over the month; each participant meets with each other whenever they can arrange that between the 2 of them, which isn't so hard given nearly every player is a regular attendee at one or more weekly events at our most popular local store.

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  5 color decks
  • moorebrother1

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  I've been playing Paradoxical Oath fora few months, so a little less mana rocks and with Orchard. I'm switching from that to some kind of form of the above brew ideas.

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  R/G hatebears (deck in Progress)
  • John Cox

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  https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1226275#paper

  inspiration

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  Druid
  deck tech decklist deck discu • • J-B-E

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  @brass-man

  Fair I didn't really go into a huge amount of detail and just focused on the fun part of seeing your opponent bring in 8 dead cards.

  Yes but I did say I was going out on a limb, it's a bold claim and could well not be true

  As for the dead cards, the only completely dead ones are the bridges, you can cast Dread Return, it doesn't come up, you can cast the narcos & pitch them to FOW, Lab Man again is castable but not ideal and is deep Analysis.

  Definitely easier to transform Oath into OmniTell as you said due to the creatures being in the deck already. The advantage with this transform is that you tend to get your opponent way more in the board with the exception of Containment Priest, however you can play around that.

  TBH I think the suggestions from this thread of using Angel of Glory's Rise instead of Deep Analysis are good and I've made that change to the list, didn't fully agree on the Azami, sure it gives you slightly more resilience but Snapcaster probe seems a fraction better and limits the number of dead cards.

  You can resolve Oath, untap and not win the game whether it be through not having a Forbiden Orchard or simply that Emrakul wont get it done, tbf Griselbrand does 95+% of the time I would imagine.

  Testing has gone really well, it's been quite a long process. The original build had Concordant Crossroads, Cavern of Souls and was just a silly turn 1 win or lose deck.

  I think that Thoughtseize is really fantastic in Vintage , so many decks have specific cards in them the deck is trying to find, like Oath, PO etc and being able to take the one card they need leaving the rest is pretty strong.PO especially will keep a hand that either has a PO, Tinker, maybe even a draw 7 and nothing else so the Thoughtseizes are pretty great there.

  Aggro Shops is an awful match up game 1, Revoker & Ballista are close to unbeatable, improves a lot game 2 as they tend to weaken their deck a bit bringing in graveyard hate, needles etc and also use Revoker/ Needle to name Hermit Druid.

  I like the PO matchup, the hand disruption is very good and they have no way to interact with Druid apart from usually a 1 of bounce card. The problem is they don't have a heavy sideboard for graveyard hate usually just some crypts.

  Storm - good matchup, hand disruption is king here.
  Oath is usually a good matchup made so by the Abrupt decays, but your show and tell plan can be a little less good if you don't have a discard spell and they draw Grisselbrand. Also unless there's Inferno Titan if you play a druid into an oath, your win percentage is not TERRIBLE, but not great either.

  I haven't lost to dredge....yet, but their game 1 Leyline is close to unbeatable. The new Abrupt decay coming out of Ravnica looks like it will slot right into this list.

  Big fan of your lists btw Brian, try this one out and see what you think

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  Budget/Unpowered options in 2018
  • Stuart

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  Just for clarification, I'm pasting the deck construction restrictions to be competing in the "budget" category.

  Budget prizes are awarded to the highest placing decks without any of the following cards:
  any "Power Nine", Bazaar of Baghdad, Mishra's Workshop or Library of Alexandria

  The change from last year I can see is you can no longer run Library of Alexandria, but you can run Time Vault.

• ?

  Vintage Lands
  deck tech • • Guest

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  @childe_roland Crucible is very bad against Dack Faden, it does seem like there should be a slot for it in vintage lands, even in the board against shops but funnily it's not quite as good as you'd think.

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  Lands, A Different Build For Vintage
  deck tech decklist deck disc • • J-B-E

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  @bactgudz They are worth considering perhaps 3 shops and a mox might be right. The advantage workshop does have is that most of the time it will be a Savannah and you often need all the mana you can get in lands. Having played with 4 X Shops I haven't found it to be a hinderance that much of the time but yeah for sure there are occasions where you don't get the Riftstone, one small advantage shops has and it's only come up a couple of times is that sometimes casting the Serum Powder is the correct play if you need that bit more mana, usually you just hold it and discard to Bazaar.

  This list still needs a couple of slight changes and playing 3 shops could be well be the best way to do it.

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  Paradoxes
  deck tech deck discussion paradoxical outcome decklist • • J-B-E

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• 

  Oath Sideboard Plan Help
  • PugSuperStar

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