Vintage Strategy

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  Junk Hatebears
  • Stormanimagus

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  Howdy, so I am working on a mostly WB version of the deck and I was vacillating on a couple things.

  Here is the list with which I am starting :

  White Black Hatebears Jacob Hilty Mana (26) 4 Cavern of Souls 4 Marsh Flats 1 Windswept Heath 1 Verdant Catacombs 3 Scrubland 1 Savannah 1 Plains 1 Swamp 1 Karakas 1 Strip Mine 2 Wasteland 1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Jet Spells and Critter (34) 3 Stony Silence 4 Deathrite Shaman 4 Dark Confidant 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 3 Spirit of the Labyrinth 3 Phyrexian Revoker 3 Kambal, Consul of Allocation 2 Containment Priest 3 Mental Misstep 3 Swords to Plowshares 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Demonic Consultation Sideboard (15) 3 Fragmentize 1 Containment Priest 2 Rest in Peace 3 Kataki, War's Wage 1 Stony Silence 3 Infernal Reckoning 2 Ravenous Trap

  My thought was that I could maybe get by with Karn over bob as the CA engine, which I think is better, but likely that means I would want to also run a different lock piece in place of stony silence in the main (namely damping sphere). I would also probably run 1 additional revoker at that point.
  That may or may not be feasible against shops (read Ballista) any thoughts?

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  Playing Strategically - Wheat vs Chaff
  • BandsWithOthers

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  I find that mastery is not always about winning but looking for improvement in every game. Sometimes it is experimentation and sometimes is it mentoring players no matter who they are.

  I played a lot in the lead up to SCG Con and I lost some games because I showed my opponents how to beat me, I wanted them to play their best game and I needed to see how to counter it. I out played some high level people and still lost, but I still had fun. I also just won some games because in Vintage your deck will just crush people.

  When playing at a level where everyone you play against is a master it is easy to see your flaws. That is where you truly need to notice your weaknesses - engagement, timing, sequencing, strategy, etc...

  To me a true master, is someone who knows their deck and their own limitations. We all have limitations and it important to know them and so that you can expand your game and your range.

  I mostly play Vintage but sometimes I play Legacy and Modern. I typically play at a high level but those formats do not keep me very engaged and I tend lose my motivation after a bit in large events.

  I find that I am playing at my highest level when I am having fun. When I am playing only to win at any cost and I am not having fun then I am not a player that anyone wants to play against. It is important to have more purpose than just winning, I find that is not just good for playing Magic but generally good in life.

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  Best Dredge deck to build for testing?
  • Prkchpsndwiches

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  @serberoth the chance of you having the card in your opening hand + top 2-3 is a few percentage points; that times how much it changes the match isn't worth what it costs you.
  dredge, of all decks, least wants to run over 60, because it wants to get to one of its 4 copies of one specific card. in other decks, particularly in non-vintage formats, it's easier to justify stuff like 61-63 card scapeshift decks.

  anything worth playing is worth putting in the 60; if you decide to add an ingot chewer, for example, to a 60, for example, it is likely not the 61st card, something else is, and you cut that.

  if you want to play "sideboard" cards main you can, but it doesn't require going beyond 60. jeskai doesn't go to 61 to play fragmentize or wear/tear main, they cut another card for it.

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  Enchantress Viability?
  • Tittliewinks22

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  @oestrus said in Enchantress Viability?:

  It does matter when you're trying to lay the groundwork, and your bricks all fold to Misstep (e.g. Wild Growth, Utopia Sprawl).

  As I indicated, I did not play these cards. Please read my reply entirely before responding. If you want to play 3 colours, you cannot afford to play these cards and get 3-for-1'd by an opposing Wasteland. The only 1 cmc cards I cared about resolving was Mystic Remora.

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  Empty the Warrens in DPS Sideboards
  • nevilshute

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  @desolutionist Pack Rat was good before ballista was printed, now its just pretty bad in my opinion.

  In general splashing 1 additional color for eather Mentor or Wheel and Empty is pretty easy and there is just a bit downside to it. However, my current build is pure UB and features tinker bot in the maindeck instead of Mentor or Empty. I dont really miss wheel a lot, i have to say, but wheel would definetly be the main reason to but a badlands in there again, not really Empty. However i dont object to empty as much as i did a few month ago, i can see it as a small number, what alienates (get it?) me is people playing 3 or even 4 copies.

  Against Shops i rather board in a huge amount of bounce spells and aim to win with 1 of them resolving at the end of their turn, or try to win early with a tinker. ( i play 1x Hurkyl's maindeck, and 1 chain of vapor, and i bring in 3x hurkyl's, 1x Rebuild, 1x Echoing Truth and 1x Island. cutting mostly discard spells and defense grids)

  Against most blue control decks i board in more defense grids and sometimes more discard (depending on the state of my sideboard at the time).
  So generally i much rather board in cards that force through my 2 main win cons (tendils and bot) instead of boarding in additional win cons.

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  Blue Jund
  • NBA84

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  @bleedth3sky the faux pas wasn't in the logic of having a basic in the board, but rather fetchlands in the main that cannot fetch for it.

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  Selkie Strike(s). . . AGAIN!
  • Stormanimagus

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  @topical_island I cut it back in 2010/2011 when I played this deck a lot it was very good back then. It really helped in the mirror since this deck was fairly heavily played at that time. I think now you would just lose to PO if you cut the FOW.

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  Why is Arlinn Kord played in Oath of Druids?
  • brianpk80

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  @zaefermalkav said in Why is Arlinn Kord played in Oath of Druids?:

  Great article!!!

  I'm one of that guys that use Airlinn Kord just because you used it. After reading this i have a new perspective of how important she is.

  Thanks!

  You're welcome. It's a honor to have the trust of the community and players like you.

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  Bazaar of Baghdad beyond Dredge
  • moorebrother1

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  @thewhitedragon69 Thats a very different take as I said we avoid serum powder. we can have busted bazaar draws but we can play the long game and not just lose if we cant mull to bazaar. we also don't have to take up sideboard space with hollowones and gurmags as they are already mainboard.

  Graf diggers is not a very good choice of grave hate it's worth mentioning leyline as that shuts down squee/bazaar as well as survival combo kills yet we can still pull thru. Grafdiggers we just cast decay or manglehorn as we can still fill our grave with impunity. The opponent didn't "not" do anything just that casting 2 mana preordains into 4 mana dack is great vs hollow one not vs hatebears.

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  How can I build a playable mono blue control(or combo) deck ?
  • iloveblue

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  @5space said in How can I build a playable mono blue control(or combo) deck ?:

  @macdeath said in How can I build a playable mono blue control(or combo) deck ?:

  Mono blue is not worth it for a combo deck since without the black tutors you loose a lot of consistency. You want a deck with redundant pieces. I would suggest revisiting the Back 2 basics mono blue control with pwalkers and versatile blue creatures (like Consecrated sphinx, Torrential gearhulk, Vendillion clique, Snapcaster mage, trinket mage ...) In today's meta you can use Dismember or Propaganda/energy flux as your creature/artifact answers and have a strong counter package with 3/4 mana drains.

  How about High Tide? Probably a splash would be good, but High Tide is quite consistent in other formats. I remember reading this back in the day, but it's quite dated:

  http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/13186_Tsunami_Warning_Bringing_High_Tide_to_Vintage.html

  High tide is barely playable in Legacy. You could build a completely broken vintage high tide for sure, is that deck good? No (believe me i've tried).
  The deck will have to be filled with "do nothing" cards which are not "must counters" for other blue decks. You basically end up with a deck similar to the old Gush storm decks except you are not favored against other blue decks (which defeats the whole purpose).

  Off the top of my head, here is a starting point for a high tide list in vintage:

  MD:
  1 Black Lotus
  1 Mox Sapphire
  1 Mox Jet
  1 Mox Pearl
  1 Lotus Petal

  1 Library of Alexandria
  3 Tundra
  2 Underground Sea
  4 Flooded strand
  2 Polluted delta
  4 Island

  1 Monastery Mentor

  1 Ancestral Recall
  1 Brainstorm
  1 Brain Freeze
  1 Dig through Time
  4 Frantic Search
  4 High tide
  1 Hurkyl's Recall
  2 Flusterstorm
  4 Force of will
  4 Mental misstep
  1 Mystical tutor
  1 Vampiric Tutor

  1 Demonic Tutor
  1 Merchant scroll
  1 Mind's desire
  4 Preordain
  1 Ponder
  3 Time Spiral
  1 Time Walk
  1 Yawgmoth's Will

  SB:
  3 Containment Priest
  2 Tormod's Crypt
  3 Hurkyl's Recall
  2 Fragmentize
  1 Plains
  1 Balance
  1 Flusterstorm
  2 Stony Silence

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  Bomberman 2017
  • enderfall

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  From what I see, most players not familiar with Bomberman, try and add the combo to a blue control shell, or cram three decks into one. That might work here and there, but in that case, why even go Bomberman?
  Just my two cents.
  Also, more Jace, The Mindscultor/ Sensei's D. Top, over cantrips and Snapcaster in this deck is best. Jtms IS the back-up plan. Tinker->BsC is good post-board against specific MUs but I wouldn't do it main. Too much tempo loss. The games where you would win with Tinker, you could've won through Bomberman/Jace anyway.

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  StoneBlade
  • moorebrother1

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  I took this Jeskai deck to an event to did very poorly. Every game was close. I cannot for sure say this is a bad deck but it is certainly not advantaged. I played against UR Pyromancer, 2 Card Monte, LandStill, and Managorger Hydra. Every game was very close. Going low to ground has advantages similar to Xerox, essentially this is a Xerox deck without the Pryomancers which may be the problem. I know no one probably cares but I tested this very heavily and it has an even match up against the meta.

  1 Mox Emerald
  1 Mox Pearl
  1 Mox Ruby
  1 Mox Sapphire
  1 Mox Jet
  1 Black Lotus

  1 Strip Mine
  1 Library of Alexandria
  1 Plains
  1 Island
  3 Flooded Strand
  3 Polluted Delta
  3 Tundra
  3 Volcanic Island

  1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
  1 Dig Through Time
  4 Force of Will
  1 Brainstorm
  1 Gush
  1 Treasure Cruise
  2 Dack Fayden
  1 Ponder
  3 Mental Misstep
  1 Gitaxian Probe
  1 Flusterstorm
  1 Pyroblast
  1 Wear / Tear
  3 Swords to Plowshares
  2 Containment Priest
  2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
  1 Monastery Mentor
  3 Stoneforge Mystic
  1 Batterskull
  1 Umezawa's Jitte
  1 Time Walk
  1 Ancestral Recall
  4 Preordain

  Sideboard
  2 Stony Silence
  1 Balance
  1 Pyroclasm
  3 By Force
  1 Grafdigger's Cage
  2 Rest in Peace
  1 Flusterstorm
  1 Pyroblast
  1 Wear / Tear
  1 Swords to Plowshares
  1 Containment Priest

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  How to beat Shops
  shops • • moorebrother1

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  I used to be firmly in the Energy Flux camp on this one. (I still think Flux is just crushing, and at least in Control Oath, which runs a bit mana dense, it's pretty good. They can make all the thopter tokens they like.) However, watching Rich Shay, and also my wife as they run Xerox, the 1for1 cheap removal game is viable at least. Shattering Spree is probably the best in that vein, since it can be, but isn't limited to being a 1for1. As a passive observer, it does seem that blunting, and finally taking apart their board with spot removal is viable.

  Ancient Grudge bears a mention here.

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  Best Hermit Druid Kill?
  • John Cox

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  @john-cox

  I think it helps for me to first define different reliabilities.

  Pre-Activation Reliability
  The set of conditions required to win prior to activating your Hermit Druid.

  Post-Activation Reliability
  The set of conditions required to win after activating your Hermit Druid.

  Post-Board Reliability
  How well the combination works against opposing graveyard hate.

  If we look at the reliability for the concise 5 card strategies:

  This requires all 5 cards involved in the combo to be in your graveyard, library, or in play. Additionally, you need 1GB for Hermit Druid+Lingering Souls. Id say thats fairly reliable.

  This requires that your opponent cant counterspell your Lingering Souls / Dread Return, or remove your Druid in response to activation (thus reducing your max creature count to 2). This is slightly less reliable as now any interaction your opponent may have means you need one more card in hand to win (counterspells).

  This combo doesnt work under any graveyard hate.
  Overall Id say this is one of the less reliable ways to win, but at only 5 cards you have more room to make the conditions work.

  The Garna combo instead of Angel still has all the same problems for 2 and 3 as the deck still needs to resolve Dread Return. The other two are different though

  All cards in the combo need to be in your library, or hand. Id say this is unreliable, especially in a long game.

  The reliability of 2 can be improved via some minor adjustment of cards/strategy with the real key here being resolution of your Dread Return.

  You can add extra conditions to 1. That is, more conditions to combo, such as counterspells in hand, or additional creatures in play. This could also just be having, say, a copy of animate dead in hand, and extra mana. You can add additional cards to your combo. Specifically, Cabal Therapy+Narcomoeba + Bridge from Below. This allows you to sweep your opponents hand before Dread Returning. A backup plan. A copy of Memory's Journey for instance can help you recover after a failed attempt for one Green mana.

  Dread return is always going to have limitations against graveyard hate though.

  A Yawgmoth's Will plan, for instance, could avoid Containment Priest, but would be more mana intensive, 2GGB, and requires a draw step.

  Stratetically, you can switch up it up and just need a Maniac in play with your Hermit Druid.

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  Decks that are not viable online (Dragon)
  • cleverpseudonym

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  I've played Dragon online before but using Oona, Queen of the Fae as the kill. It's worse than the Tasigur kill but this one is possible to do online.

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  Miracles in Vintage: A Primer
  deck tech • • Winglerw28

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  Anyone have any updates on playing this deck? Looks awesome as I loved playing miracles in legacy.

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  Prison-style Workshop deck viable post thorn-restriction?
  • Dr. J

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  I really just completely missed the PW:) I don't think we can run Workshop and then try to cast things that don't abuse it. If they ever print a PW that is "artifact PW" then I'll test it, until then I don't think its worth it. You get awkward hands when you mix mana types and doing it in a deck that can't fix its top decks, can't manipulate its library, can't fetch its lands, there are a lot of design constraints that really hamper those plans.

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  looking for a weird dredge list-thought i saw it here
  • BlindTherapy

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  @brass-man You would be surprised how many people miss that a Vengeful Pharaoh is in your GY, and attack into it.

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  Turbo Stasis
  • kat

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  @kat said in Turbo Stasis:

  I would like some suggestions on replacements for the Tempest Drake which are 2cmc.

  I believe Voltaic Servant is great. It has pseudo vigilance, but can also make you pay for Stasis forever if you have a blue Mox or Seat of the Synod while also allowing infinite turns with Time Vault.

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  Battlebond to MTGO
  • PugSuperStar

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  See also this thread in which Rich Shay graciously volunteered to put together a list of Vintage relevant cards to make sure they are included.

  https://twitter.com/atoglord/status/999335073710313472