@hankzhong funnily enough, shops has been a great matchup, mentor is good, and storm a bad match up. is it not worth keeping in a few bolts for the mentor decks? i just have always liked having a few removal spells in the board. ill try out your list, ive never tried JVP before as it honestly always looked weak on paper, maybe its better than i think im not sure. my side board is
4 ingot chewer (shops and i bring in two against dredge to take care of bridges)
2 mindbreak trap(storm and other blue decks)
1 flusterstorm(same reason as above)
3 grafdiggers cage (oath and dredge)
2 ravenous trap (dredge)
2 surgical extraction (dredge and storm)
1 ancient grudge (shops)
im not as woried about shops as that has always been a good matchup but as you said, lodestone is banned so that matchup will more than likely change. as i said ill test your deck out.
I've long felt Necro was most useful in mid-range control decks (going all the way back to the black pump-knight/drain life decks) but it seems now it only sees play in storm decks. Does anyone have any experience with this? Perhaps with Monastery Mentor?
Necropotence was used historically almost exclusively used in two different strategic approaches: Aggro and Combo.
From 1995 until roughly 1999, Necropotence was used predominantly in Aggro decks. Then, in the late 90s, it was used in Pebbles combo, and then, most powerfully, in Trix.
In either Aggro or Combo decks, Necropotence was used to refuel and refill, allowing it to overwhelm the control pilot. Necropotence is the greatest card drawer of all time.
That said, blue- centered, multi-color control strategies have almost never used Necropotence to great effect.
The main problem with Necropotence in Control decks is this: Control decks often need multiple turns to set up and execute their finishers. Necropotence does not give you the time to do that. Necropotence really incentivizes you to win the game within 2 turns of resolving it - otherwise your life will be in a very precarious situation.
The secondary problem is casting it. Generating BBB in a control strategy is not easy, and Dark Ritual is usually paired with Necorpotence.
That said, there are decks that have used Necropotence that verge on control. In the mid-1990s, one of the lesser, but still played, Necro decks was mono black control, with a heavy discard suite, but with Corrupts and Drain life effects to buy more time and turns.
Similarly, I have seen Necropotence used to great effect in Lotus Cobra control decks.
Lotus Cobra allows a control pilot to accelerate Necropotence out quickly and generate the BBB without relying on card disadvantageous accelerants like Dark Ritual.
Seems reasonable, but i am really not liking kataki. I was testing against Doomsday and I was surprised by how much game the deck had. I think cutting kataki for hammer mage and then playing chalice seems real interesting.
Pre-Golem, during 4 Gush, 4 Scroll GAT season, I believe the standout version of Workshops was a Metalworker build that just so happened to include the Ravagar/Triskelion combo. I vividly remember testing against it on cockatrice.
On a related note, Does anyone remember the guy from NE area who sometimes played Dark Confidant/Greater Gargadon Shops? He wrote articles for SCG I believe; was a semi-pro. I just can't remember his name.
@Winterstar I'm not a Doomsday expert, but I find it hard to imagine that the deck would be very strong if Gush were restricted. It would probably be playable, but weak. It might look more like Legacy Doomsday.
gha. There was a thread on this on the previous Mana Drain; called blue prison, I think. The basic problem is you can't reliably flip Erayo without having a lot more moxes than average... at least 6-7 more (1 petal, 2 chrome, 3 opal, 1 mana vault). Then your manabase becomes really vulnerable. Second, Arcane Lab plus Erayo is also a non-bo if the Lab is played first; so we ended up cutting Arcane Lab. Third, you totally can lose to an early threat that comes down before Erayo flips; there's not really enough room left in the deck for a robust draw & tutor & answer package. 4th, its not clear this 2-mana enchantment is at all better than Oath of Druids. Finally, Arcane Lab probably is awesome in this meta, but a deck based around Eidolon of Rhetoric is probably a lot better.
Along the lines of what @hankzhong said, isn't this deck just better without burning wish? It makes comboing faster and more consistent, and frees up enough space in the board to have a good shops matchup while not ignoring stuff like dredge.
I mean, adding oath to combat shops is still a great tactic. In a meta defined by shops and mentor-control, a deck like storm that already has a good control matchup, if it could be tweaked to have a better shops matchup, could be a real force.
I feel like Vault/Key is one of those things that is best tossed into a deck with another plan A., or at a minimum a very powerful plan B. It's such a low investment, especially in any build where Key already has other advantages, that it's easier to just toss in and oops your way into infinite turns.
I played it in Painter at a local event a few weeks back and it worked out well. It's also in Belcher, which has such absurd velocity that it's not hard to find the combo. Both are stone dead to Null Rod, though.
@shawnthehero I mentioned Restoration Angel as it was played in part to kill Jace. They cast their 4 mana planeswalker and you respond to their Brainstorm trigger with a 3 power flier. It was a sign of JTMS's dominance in the NE (which you alluded to).
And yes, Shawn, Jace is a very good card... If I expected Big Blue and Oath to be more popular, I would think him a major player going forward. Unfortunately, I think Mentor and Young Pyromancer decks are going to be the the more popular and that is not good news for our 4-mana friend.
I saw Sylvan Library in one of Rich Shay's decks from a while ago and gave it a try. I haven't been impressed so far but I've only played about 4 events with it. Most of the time it is too slow. Sometimes I can't afford the life. When I get an extra 3 cards out of it it's incredible but that doesn't seem to happen all that often.
The miracle is probably a better candidate. The problem is that it shifts Jace activations into your opponent's turn. Not that we haven't all dreamed of "Your end step, cast Time Walk. Resolves?" I assume the card got thoroughly tested in Legacy, and it's not like you see it in RUG and BUG decks there despite 4x Brainstorm and 4x Ponder.
You have 2 cards left in your deck. Playing sin prodder will not change the odds of you top decking that card, which is still 50/50 because neither player knows which card of the 2 is the one you need. Yes after the fact you will know if prodder would have won the game because he cleared the crap off the top, but it does not change the fact that you have a 50/50 shot.
This is the example people needed to understand that Prodder does not allow your opponent to manipulate your draws or affect your hand. I was going to try to get the point across but you've done so elegantly.
The primary purpose of the Shamans is Wasteland resistance, but their incidental value in fighting Crucible, Snapcaster, Will, and JVP is not zero. It's not normally a card I'm a big fan of in Vintage (I generally think of it as "too fair") but it's been very useful in covering the third or fourth color.
I'm just not sure the fifth color is worth adding more fragility to the manabase; especially in a relatively fair list. I'm usually the first to climb aboard the Greed Train but in this case I'm happy to trade it for fewer games of getting randomly crushed by Shops, Landstill, or BUG Fish.
I know, but I'd love if this card could count as a counter for counters on your graveyard... Maybe that would be too busted... Leaving 3 mana open would discourage opponents from playing Recall, Dig, etc, without double backup.
@MaximumCDawg (quick aside, the old site is going to get put back up at archive.themanadrain.com, but there were some technical troubles I haven't resolved yet - the old data should all be there when I fix things though)
There are other options, but it turns out that most of them are good only in really specific situations where in most situations Griselbrand is quite good. I agree on the multiples thing, if I were playing control oath right now i would split 1 griselbrand w/ 1-2 Rune Scarred Demon. I am not, because in this deck, just ignoring containment priest, oathing twice and winning with a memory's journey return'd yawgmoth's will has been real good.
Post board against shops I think your best bet creature wise is a mix of blazing archon (or elesh norn) and griseldad. Blazing Archon literally turns off their chances of winning against most modern shops lists, and griselbrand helps you win the game before they get a trike with enough counters to kill either the archon or you. Elesh Norn has been good, but sometimes you need to oath against, and it doesn't win through Wurmcoil which is frustrating.
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