L1 Judge here. If I were called to the situation you described in your first post, I’d rule that player B’s explanation is correct: Player A putting their Gisela in the graveyard indicates that they chose to apply the damage doubling effect first, which is a legal choice for them to make. Player B’s choice of applying the damage reduction effect first is also legal, so there’s nothing to do here: Player A’s Gisela is dead, Player B’s Gisela is alive, and they can continue with the game.
Note that it doesn’t matter whether Player A knew that they could choose in which order they apply the replacement effects. Player B gets an advantage for having a superior knowledge of the rules, but that’s how competitive Magic works.
Some time ago I played around with a UWG Enchantress deck on MODO, which used Mystic Remora as one of the enchantments. I was playing this when Gush was a 4-of and it honestly worked fine too. The problem I had was that it wasn't consistent enough but I never worked on it much to get it right. There might be something along this direction for you to consider too!
@structuremole That's great. I hadn't noticed that detail. Well done. Also check out how Tracker and his clues work with other shops cards like, Ravager, Crucible, Tanglewire, and Kuldotha... Not sayin its awesome, but interesting at least. And in Shops, which tends to have basically no way to draw cards and crap tons of mana... this clue stuff could make a lot of sense. Imagine Tolarian Academy with clues on the table...
@themonadnomad I think it still can but probably doesn't absolutely have to completely lock the opponent out in order to win the game before an opponent without 4 Mishra's Workshop can. The deck was still a powerhouse before the printing of Lodestone Golem, it's just a matter of finding some different tools now.
@gkraigher Library is best in sideboarded games to help you find your sideboard cards (be they anti-hate or transformational stuff).
On Chain of Vapor, I'm not much of a fan. It gets hit by Mental Misstep, but more importantly, it's really bad against Containment Priest and Rest in Peace. Containment Priest has Flash, so it only works for 1 turn if they're tapped out. If they know you're on Chain of Vapors, they can leave up their mana to recast their Priest, making your Chain of Vapors worthless.
Using it on Rest in Peace at least works for a turn, but you're starting from scratch since there's no way to have a graveyard while Rest in Peace is in play. It usually takes more than 1 turn to get going if you're starting from scratch. Once they recast it, it wipes your graveyard again, nullifying your progress. You can get some zombies out of the deal, maybe, but that hardly seems comparable to things that take it out forever.
In my opinion, Chain of Vapor is outdated. It was great when everyone was using Leyline of the Void as their go-to anti-Dredge hate. Now it's bad.
@hankzhong funnily enough, shops has been a great matchup, mentor is good, and storm a bad match up. is it not worth keeping in a few bolts for the mentor decks? i just have always liked having a few removal spells in the board. ill try out your list, ive never tried JVP before as it honestly always looked weak on paper, maybe its better than i think im not sure. my side board is
4 ingot chewer (shops and i bring in two against dredge to take care of bridges)
2 mindbreak trap(storm and other blue decks)
1 flusterstorm(same reason as above)
3 grafdiggers cage (oath and dredge)
2 ravenous trap (dredge)
2 surgical extraction (dredge and storm)
1 ancient grudge (shops)
im not as woried about shops as that has always been a good matchup but as you said, lodestone is banned so that matchup will more than likely change. as i said ill test your deck out.
Seems reasonable, but i am really not liking kataki. I was testing against Doomsday and I was surprised by how much game the deck had. I think cutting kataki for hammer mage and then playing chalice seems real interesting.
@mediumsteve I also assume it was talking about oath. Afaik aegis would shut therapy , and the peek component of probe.
Other than than it affects hurkyl's, gifts, discard, direct damage and also ancestral, in case opponent wants to empty your library ;)
Pre-Golem, during 4 Gush, 4 Scroll GAT season, I believe the standout version of Workshops was a Metalworker build that just so happened to include the Ravagar/Triskelion combo. I vividly remember testing against it on cockatrice.
On a related note, Does anyone remember the guy from NE area who sometimes played Dark Confidant/Greater Gargadon Shops? He wrote articles for SCG I believe; was a semi-pro. I just can't remember his name.
@Winterstar I'm not a Doomsday expert, but I find it hard to imagine that the deck would be very strong if Gush were restricted. It would probably be playable, but weak. It might look more like Legacy Doomsday.
gha. There was a thread on this on the previous Mana Drain; called blue prison, I think. The basic problem is you can't reliably flip Erayo without having a lot more moxes than average... at least 6-7 more (1 petal, 2 chrome, 3 opal, 1 mana vault). Then your manabase becomes really vulnerable. Second, Arcane Lab plus Erayo is also a non-bo if the Lab is played first; so we ended up cutting Arcane Lab. Third, you totally can lose to an early threat that comes down before Erayo flips; there's not really enough room left in the deck for a robust draw & tutor & answer package. 4th, its not clear this 2-mana enchantment is at all better than Oath of Druids. Finally, Arcane Lab probably is awesome in this meta, but a deck based around Eidolon of Rhetoric is probably a lot better.
Along the lines of what @hankzhong said, isn't this deck just better without burning wish? It makes comboing faster and more consistent, and frees up enough space in the board to have a good shops matchup while not ignoring stuff like dredge.
I mean, adding oath to combat shops is still a great tactic. In a meta defined by shops and mentor-control, a deck like storm that already has a good control matchup, if it could be tweaked to have a better shops matchup, could be a real force.
I feel like Vault/Key is one of those things that is best tossed into a deck with another plan A., or at a minimum a very powerful plan B. It's such a low investment, especially in any build where Key already has other advantages, that it's easier to just toss in and oops your way into infinite turns.
I played it in Painter at a local event a few weeks back and it worked out well. It's also in Belcher, which has such absurd velocity that it's not hard to find the combo. Both are stone dead to Null Rod, though.
@shawnthehero I mentioned Restoration Angel as it was played in part to kill Jace. They cast their 4 mana planeswalker and you respond to their Brainstorm trigger with a 3 power flier. It was a sign of JTMS's dominance in the NE (which you alluded to).
And yes, Shawn, Jace is a very good card... If I expected Big Blue and Oath to be more popular, I would think him a major player going forward. Unfortunately, I think Mentor and Young Pyromancer decks are going to be the the more popular and that is not good news for our 4-mana friend.
Chalice of the Void getting restricted is good for the Hatebears player, as facing X = 2 is a silver bullet.
You clearly know very little about Hatebears. There's this 4-of called Cavern of souls. There's also a card called Abrupt Decay. They both, umm. . . exist.
I saw Sylvan Library in one of Rich Shay's decks from a while ago and gave it a try. I haven't been impressed so far but I've only played about 4 events with it. Most of the time it is too slow. Sometimes I can't afford the life. When I get an extra 3 cards out of it it's incredible but that doesn't seem to happen all that often.
The miracle is probably a better candidate. The problem is that it shifts Jace activations into your opponent's turn. Not that we haven't all dreamed of "Your end step, cast Time Walk. Resolves?" I assume the card got thoroughly tested in Legacy, and it's not like you see it in RUG and BUG decks there despite 4x Brainstorm and 4x Ponder.
The primary purpose of the Shamans is Wasteland resistance, but their incidental value in fighting Crucible, Snapcaster, Will, and JVP is not zero. It's not normally a card I'm a big fan of in Vintage (I generally think of it as "too fair") but it's been very useful in covering the third or fourth color.
I'm just not sure the fifth color is worth adding more fragility to the manabase; especially in a relatively fair list. I'm usually the first to climb aboard the Greed Train but in this case I'm happy to trade it for fewer games of getting randomly crushed by Shops, Landstill, or BUG Fish.
Have you considered something along the lines of coercive portal to help get you to the combo quicker or is serum powder sufficient?
For reference this is the list I ran last time I was on combo shops, obviously quite a different build to yours and it's about a year old now
4 buried ruin
2 city of traitors
1 Mox opal
3 grim monolith
4 voltaic key
4 metal worker
4 Serum powder
4 forge master
2 lightning greeves
Staff of domination
2 coercive portal
Spine of ish shah
There are other options, but it turns out that most of them are good only in really specific situations where in most situations Griselbrand is quite good. I agree on the multiples thing, if I were playing control oath right now i would split 1 griselbrand w/ 1-2 Rune Scarred Demon. I am not, because in this deck, just ignoring containment priest, oathing twice and winning with a memory's journey return'd yawgmoth's will has been real good.
Post board against shops I think your best bet creature wise is a mix of blazing archon (or elesh norn) and griseldad. Blazing Archon literally turns off their chances of winning against most modern shops lists, and griselbrand helps you win the game before they get a trike with enough counters to kill either the archon or you. Elesh Norn has been good, but sometimes you need to oath against, and it doesn't win through Wurmcoil which is frustrating.
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