L1 Judge here. If I were called to the situation you described in your first post, I’d rule that player B’s explanation is correct: Player A putting their Gisela in the graveyard indicates that they chose to apply the damage doubling effect first, which is a legal choice for them to make. Player B’s choice of applying the damage reduction effect first is also legal, so there’s nothing to do here: Player A’s Gisela is dead, Player B’s Gisela is alive, and they can continue with the game.
Note that it doesn’t matter whether Player A knew that they could choose in which order they apply the replacement effects. Player B gets an advantage for having a superior knowledge of the rules, but that’s how competitive Magic works.
@maximumcdawg said in [XLN] Chart a Course:
@islandswamp said in [XLN] Chart a Course:
I think that Blue Red Delver/Young Pyro deck could really like this card AND it would allow them to run four Wastelands without caring (unlike Gush). Maybe one Gush, three of these things, Dig, Cruise, and the rest of the restricted stuff. Seems legit to me, especially now that this deck wouldn't care about having to go around Mentors as much.
I think you're spot-on that this card is PLAYABLE and I agree. I initially through Delver, too. But, Blue really does have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to blue draw spells. We've got:
Ancestral Recall, Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain x4, Gush, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, and just that is already 10 cards. Which one do you cut for Chart a Course?
Perhaps this is better than some of those cards if your deck (1) attacks a lot but (2) wants specific cards in the yard. Like, a Welder shell? Put another way, is it possible that this card replaces Thirst for Knowledge somewhere? Unlike Thirst, this is cheaper AND you have some control over whether you want the discard or not.
Well you don't cut any of those. I imagine there might be a slot somewhere (GUSH MAYBE).
Below is what I've been playing since the latest B&R changes with modest some success (3-1 in a daily & 3-2 and 5-0 in the league). Basically cut a third preordain for a second bargain from my standard DPS list (definitely not certain that's correct, as I side out the second bargain a lot).
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Petition
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mind's Desire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Sol Ring
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Underground Sea
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Wheel of Fortune
2 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Defense Grid
2 Ancient Tomb
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Defense Grid
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Chain of Vapor
I do think this has some advantages over PO Storm. It's faster than the slower PO builds, more stable than the faster PO builds (e.g. Reid Duke's with 4 Mox Opal and 2 Grim Monolith, which seems to have fallen out of favor), and less vulnerable to null rod effects (although they can still hurt depending on what we've drawn). Also, using duress effects for protection over FoW and other countermagic means our protection spells are less costly overall, and we make much better use of defense grid. Of course we lose the ability to be reactive, which makes us more vulnerable to shops.
However, I'll freely admit that the biggest reason I play this on MODO over PO storm is that I own the cards (virtual FoW and mox opal are pricey!), so my perspective is definitely biased. Regardless, I do hope the latest changes allow dark rituals to reclaim a place in the meta.
*edit#1 on 9/9/17: Just realized the aforementioned daily was before the latest b&r change. Sorry for the misrepresentation.
*edit#2 on 9/16/17: Updated to reflect fact that I just went 5-0 in my second MTGO Vintage league with this list. Played Ravager Shops, Delver, Dredge, Oath, and Uwx, if I remember correctly.
@poxeveryturn said in Dredge going into Summer 2017:
@rikter I know that. I was just pointing it out as another option. I wasn't trying to say it was better than cafe. It obviously is well behind cage, priest, and RIP as some of the top tier options. Lol
I don't think we're mad that you brought it up (at least I'm not), it's an interesting card and worth thinking about, I just don't think it could ever be viable.
Structurally, the only reason the card would be worth running over Rest in Peace would be if you have Delve spells (because whatever your opponent is doing to send creatures to the graveyard could be shut down entirely by RIP) but in that instance you would probably prefer Cage or Containment Priest anyway. So far as I can tell, there's no niche for this card
Something about this list seems off to me. Maybe it's all the discard spells in it. Those seem especially bad in vintage at such a high number. I think 2 thoughtseize main and 2 board is enough. They get very bad in the late game and they aren't even great in the early game. This is not modern where you are taking away their first and ONLY play. This is vintage where if you take away a powerful line, they still have a second powerful line to take. And then you keep drawing worthless cards in the long run.
I'd rather see more impactful creatures in the list than discard cards. Unfortunately, that probably means, and as much as I love Grim Flayer, that Grim Flayer becomes unplayable in the list because you will have one less archetype in the yard.
I like manglehorn, confidant, deathrite shaman. I like flametongue Kavu or some other creature removal/creature hybrid.
Jund wins because of two for 1s. I don't see a lot of value cards in this list. Mostly 1 for 1.
You also get access to rootmaze to stop paradoxical outcome lists.
Oh yeah and Liliana of the Viel is unplayable in Vintage. It does nothing vs 90% of the field.
If you can find a way to get more ramp cards, mind twist becomes viable. I don't know if that means playing mana crypt and off color moxen or lotus petal or spirit guides. But I think the key to this deck becoming success hinges on Mind twist's inclusion and being able to cast it for 3-5 on turn 2.
Green suns zenith and dryad arbor aren't playable in vintage either. GSZ is just a bad card. You are always overpaying 1 mana for whatever creature you are trying to get. The versatility of it is punished in Vintage especially because 1) it's a spell and more cards effect spells than creatures 2) tax effects exist.
So cut the green suns, Liliana's, bad discard spells, grim flayers, garbage green sun tutor cards like dryad arbor and gaddock teeg.
Add ramp, fastbond, more wasteland effects, mind twist, and probably play the 4 of the walking crucible dude, and some number of flametongue kavu. You could even just play crucible of worlds on top of the creature copy too. I really like that idea, along with fastbond and Mind Twist.
See what I did there. I took out fair (often terrible cards) and added in a bunch of powerful ones.
The loss of gush would not be so bad if probe was still legal as well. But now, not only does the deck lose on its mana base and its draw engine but it looses the ability to capitilize on openings and win on the spot (not even mentionning that constructing piles can be harder in some instances). TPS is probably the better ritual deck going forward, especially considering the prevalence of workshops in the metagame.
@serracollector said in UR Standstill:
the 8.01 and the one below tho are my 2 lists I ran and t8 with, mind you, highly outdated, but the premist remains the same. Hope they give insight sir. Any questions feel free to PM me, I prolly got over 1000 hours in testing these lists on cockatrice.
Yeah, I was looking more for a list that at least factors in the Dig Through Time restriction in terms of its age, which Morphling.de decklists don't really do. Thanks though.
@serracollector I'm just thinking of Company. I have no idea since I haven't tested. It just feels like... well, like a turn behind Workshop since you have to play a land to play Cobra and pass the turn. Workshop comes down and taps right away... Not trying to argue. Test it. Go nuts and let us know what happens. I'm glad you are interested.
I prefer the more resilient versions for several reasons. Though I haven't been able to join as many Dailies this month as I was in May, June, and July, I had a lot of success then with lists that walked the line between Paradoxical control and Cantrip Gush-Delve.
The main reasons I've preferred the Paradox lists with a Mentor win-con that are not "Opal Soup" are:
Lower frequency of hideous mulligans.
Less games auto-lost due to inactive Mox Opal(s).
Better equipped to win despite Stony Silence/Null Rod.
Monastery Mentor is the best answer to Monastery Mentor
Able to change roles, particularly post sideboard. For instance, when an opponent can be expected to overboard v. Paradox with Null Rods and artifact hate, I board out Mana Vault, sometimes EE, and 1 or 2 Outcomes, morphing into more of a straight up Mentor deck.
Paradoxical Mirrors. The control/resilient versions have been substantially more favorable in matches v. the combo lists.
@john-cox said in How many artifact mana sources can you play before Null/Stony wrecks you?:
I would recommend not to build around hate cards unless your building for a specific meta. You may build a deck that beats null rod, but find your self in a meta with very few decks that that matters against.
As far as i'm concerned, the specific meta is any time that you play, your opponent could have them.
It looks as though Paradoxical has fallen out a little bit, and Shops have moved away from Fleetwheels and Ballistas, and towards Metamorph and Precursor. Scouring decklists, i see very little Stony Silence and Null Rod.
But everything warrants an analysis, it's all about the tiny edges and maximizing knowledge.
While you are totally correct, decks that can be blown by a single card must prepare for that. You don't not play Nature's Claim in Dredge or Chain of Vapor in Paradoxical.
@desolutionist said in How many artifact mana sources can you play before Null/Stony wrecks you?:
I think you want less than 10-11 if you're worried about Rod
Not super worried, John Cox raised a good point and i looked into more concrete data about these two and there is very little dampers in decks at the moment. But like i mentioned to him, it's worth playing a few less if it's too easy to be blown out, and have that tiny edge in addition to prepare a removal.
Thanks for all of the help and for breaking down your explanations for me. I have very little experience in the format and try to read as much as I can and look over deck lists and watch matches. The help is very much appreciated! I was thinking of balance as a reset button like the supreme verdict in case things get out of hand and I need to "pull the chute" so to speak. I know that sometimes having that backup can really help and having it at a lower mana cost against a shops deck seems appealing as opposed to the 4 mana spell which gets expensive with spheres in play. I'll go back to the drawing board a bit with it and try to play test some. Thanks again for all the insights! This format is so fascinating and complex from a construction point of view.
Boy, I'm a little surprised to hear that people are down on Dack. I find him to be terrific against both Mentor mirror and Shops.
Against brown, no matter what you play (Krosan Grip?) they can always respond to anything you do by sacing with Ravager, or unloading damage with Balista. That's just the nature of the game. So if you're used to Dack being game over the way it once was against a Lodestone, well... he's not that.
But he is viable removal against a deck that you just need a bunch of removal against. If they play Dack into a Ballista... lets say, then yeah, they just dump all the counters on you and Dack in response. But that's exactly how you beat that deck. You have drawing cards and they don't. So if you can just 1 for 1 removal them until they are out of cards and resolve any drawing spell and get ahead, you will likely win. So stocking up removal and hate is great, and Dack counts. Toss in some Swords, some By Force, a dash of Stony Silence and you will hit a critical mass of hate that can carry the day. And where stuff like By Force might be great against Shops while bad against the rest of the meta, Dack is just live against nearly everything. I really love this card.
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