L1 Judge here. If I were called to the situation you described in your first post, I’d rule that player B’s explanation is correct: Player A putting their Gisela in the graveyard indicates that they chose to apply the damage doubling effect first, which is a legal choice for them to make. Player B’s choice of applying the damage reduction effect first is also legal, so there’s nothing to do here: Player A’s Gisela is dead, Player B’s Gisela is alive, and they can continue with the game.
Note that it doesn’t matter whether Player A knew that they could choose in which order they apply the replacement effects. Player B gets an advantage for having a superior knowledge of the rules, but that’s how competitive Magic works.
I've been playing BUG for the past few weeks and am overall happy with the performance.
I have made adjustments with included the removal of Dark Confidant. I love this card but he was not good enough and was doing far too much damage to me.
The two all stars in the deck are Leovold and Ramunap Excavator. Ramunap works best if you plan on building a mana control build like I have built. This with null rod and recuring wasteland/strip mine/ghost quarter works great. If you land a fastbond, you really can take over the game with this guy.
Your list looks more aggressive which is not a bad route. I have 2 delvers in my list that really come in handy when you need to have quick or flying damage. Your list might make good use of this if you are looking for speed.
Dismember has not been very impressive for me. I have one in my sideboard for the eldrazi matches but otherwise, abrupt decay is almost always better.
I personally don't like having more than one Sylvan Library. I would replace the second one with gush.
For me, BUG lists play the aggressor. As such, I rarely get good use out of Library of Alexandria as I play my spells quickly. This is a tempo deck so I think you would get more out of a wasteland (or 4).
That's my BUG philosophy. Hope it helps.
@John-Cox if you keep a hand with dredge because you assume crop rotation will get you bazaar you could get severely blown out by mental misstep. But even before misstep, the last time crop rotation saw competitive play was in 5c shops. Shops are more of a tempo deck now than a prison deck like they were back then, they seldom play any colors and have access to expedition map if they really wanted that kind of effect.
So The Atog Lord has gone 4-0 and 3-1, pushing the Baral part of the deck, and while I'm not very comfortable with his list, it just goes to show there's a lot of room for customization and building the deck to suit your personal play style. He's a little overly excited about Baral in my opinion. I prefer to look at Baral as a role player rather than the main focal point, but I admit the Manamorphose combo is powerful! He's playing them over the Lotus Petal and Mana Vault, which is reasonable. I do like Mana Vault though. He's also playing 3rd Baral over Gush, which I highly disagree with. Gush is essential in my opinion. It's both a combo piece and a card advantage play that's great with LoA and Jace.
The traditional build of the deck posted two disappointing performances in the Challenge this weekend. A good look at consistency has resulted in a rebuild that is proving to be for the better. Baral and Manamorphose have continued to outperform expectations, so they have stepped into the center stage with the new version.
@ZaKustom05 Sweet stuff, thanks for finding it to share with me!
@ChubbyRain Okay, interesting. Yes, i was thinking that having Legacy the same weekend, maybe there be large numbers of people who don't even play Vintage just jamming their legacy decks for whatever reason (minus BStorm and Ponder)
@Brass-Man Ahh, yea that's the kind of perspective i need. I could not really imagine what kind of portion of folks are just 'playing just to play'. I figured if half the people there were playing D&T or Eldrazi you would want a couple cards just due to their frequency of being paired with them, not necessarily their power level. But you raise a good point, a couple rounds in, if i am winning, then those types of decks are going to be much less frequent.
I wouldn't discount the increased importance of the workshop mirror. A deck that cuts 4 Wires for 4 threats is going to have a big edge against a Workshop deck that doesn't. Even if Wire was better against, say, Mentor and Outcome (and I'm not sure it is), it might still be the least-risky card to cut in order to get an edge in the mirror.
I suspect this has been correct for years, and is just being discovered now, rather than a reaction to some new card pool or metagame change.
@Brass-Man said in Looking for ideas on a uw deck non mentor:
Not a lot of synergy with the cards you're already running, but when I hear "u/w without mentor", the first thing I think of is Moat. What you're looking for is a powerful card that punishes you for running Mentors. Unfortunately Stoneforge Mystic is probably better with Mentors, but there are strong cards that aren't.
Moat works, maybe Supreme Verdict, Oath if you're willing to splash.
Exactly what I was thinking. Bring back Blue Angels!
Another change you can possibly make is to take out Brainstorm for another restricted bomb, but it must be a good one. Merchant Scroll, or some sort of tutor like Imperial Seal. It's a deck that's on the cusp of just having one more card to be a fairly easy deck to win with. It doesn't even need Paradoxical Outcome to win tons of matches, it's just a great support card and draw engine.
You can also swap Chain of Vapor in the SB for Serum Powder if you wanna get greedy and allow yourself to get better chances to draw SB cards. The SB cards like Echoing etc will help you get out of sticky situations. Leyline is a clutch move against Dredge, Snappy decks and Tarmo decks. Not to mention is just destroys combo and other Academy decks if you've stripped their Academy.
Another big thing about Academy is that their is a foil to the deck.
Channel Fireball as funny as it sounds or Channel variants are a big reason why Blue has cards like Force of Will, Mental Misstep and Misdirection.
The way Channel Fireball decks are made sadly is that they require 4 Channel as a structural card. Without it players cannot use life as a resource.Another funny thing about MTG is that originally Academy was supposed to use White as a backup to support Black and Blue, since White has the best control elements and can support a combo engine with trivalous things like Balance, but Balance is the only card that is restricted in white. Maybe if Wizards eventually prints another White restricted card we'll have something that doesn't use Red as a backup in Tolarian Academy. Red is for Removal, Draw, and tricks like discarding both players hand, or just your hand if the other player doesn't have one. If White had let's say Balance go in the Wheel of Fortune slot, and maybe StP go in Echoing Ruin I might see that as possible. But White really needs some removal, I'll have to do more studying to find a few cards that go in White for the Echoing Ruin slot. MtG is mainly about studying when playing Tolarian Academy. With something like Rituals for example it might be about being flashy or say winning tournaments.
Gush is another one of those decks you really have to put a lot of time and effort into to really get it to work, theres tons of pro players that surely can atleast want to play Gush as a kitchen table magic deck, the same could be said for Shops and Dredge, but whats required to get those decks to run like a Academy deck is far and beyond what players are sometimes capable of. Which is why some players win the events, and some just don't. Sometimes Red is too strong, which is a common cycle in MtG. It forces players to lose to good decks. When actually they are a good player. It allows Dredge to cheat with Ingot Chewer, I actually had a Reveliark deck that used Ingot Chewer in standard, it was just way too good. I guess if you splash White you can use Hold at Bay or Divine Offering. They are both medicore cards. If Wizards really wants they can change Divine Offering to life lost this turn and Hold at Bay to less life but destroy all artifacts to with same name. Echoing Calm is a decent alternative to what White wants, I guess you could also run Fragmentize but it's just not the same as wiping out 2 or more Null Rods on the table. The original purpose of Echoing Ruin. I would actually be pleasant with a white reprint of Echoing Ruin but it's one of those where I don't think Wizards would want White splashing in the color pie to get a powerful effect at this time.
Depending on how you build Academy you can kick Aggro to the curve, or crush Combo or even other Academy decks.
@Brass-Man Seems like a rough grind to get six critters into your graveyard. If you're playing Gobs, it's for the Dack, Welder, Chains, and Earwig Squad package. Tinker for Gift lets any dead Welders and Matrons come back at a size Shops can't ignore. I might be thinking about that entirely wrong and maybe it's better just to board into something like Paradoxical Outcome since most Shops players will board out their Thorns after seeing a bunch of goblins game 1.
I have seen most Mentor lists run 4-6 hate pieces. IMHO 2 each of Preist, Cage, and RIP, since those all also hit Oath (RIP if its Sun Titan Oath for example), have been the best combination. It also depends on if your list runs the singleton strip, or wastelands as well as those are hate on bazaar.
After more testing, I have come to this updated list. The disclaimer is that I admit that mono-brown stax is probably a much better deck. However, once I again, i'm challenging myself to optimize Red Shops.
Some things i've noticed:
I took out Tangle Wire. In the current meta, I feel like it's not good enough. The beauty of shops is that because we are a hate deck, we can tailor our hate pieces to the meta. Eventually, I may put Tangle Wire back in but right now, I think Ensnaring Bridge gets the nod.
I've replaced Shattering Spree in the SB with By Force. By Force is an amazing card hold cow.
I'm currently testing Karn. I really like Sundering Titan, but I feel like he's too unreliable without a Welder. Some other fatties I want to test are Razormane Masticore, Triskelion, or Wurmcoil Engine.
Most shop decks have 1 piece of card advantage. This is usually Coercive Portal or Bottled Cloister. I chose Uba Mask, due to it's synergy with Welders and Bazaar.
I really want to find room for either 1 Buried Ruins or 1 Inventor's Fair. The cuts are hard though. I also want to do -1 Goblin Welder and +1 Phyrexian Revoker. Revoker is REALLY good.
So, here is the list:
// Vintage Red Shops 2.0
// 60 Maindeck
// 30 Artifact
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Null Rod
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mana Crypt
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Uba Mask
// 8 Creature
3 Goblin Welder
1 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Karn, Silver Golem
// 22 Land
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Barbarian Ring
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Ancient Tomb
// 15 Sideboard
// 7 Artifact
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Null Rod
// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Wurmcoil Engine
// 3 Land
SB: 3 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
// 3 Sorcery
SB: 3 By Force
I liked the idea of using artifact mutation on something like a LSG or tanglewire. By Force is way less swingy and I'll make the swap.
Thanks for the feedback, and the deck is almost all red now 😲!
@mediumsteve said in R/G Hatebears:
I'll preface by saying that I don't think this deck is going to be great, but anyways...
100% on that. I just want something fun and cheap. If I wanted good I'd play a different deck.
@Teazia I have and it's not worth it. A deck running Mystic remora should probably be running no less than four M.Remora which should be enough to get you to your end game just fine, without adding jank.
That being said, I have also tried Braid of fire alongside Energy storm. It's fun and definitely worth looking into as well for a Red, White and blue control deck.
@portland I actually don't think Remora is very good right now because tempo-blue is just a lot better than the Weissman style, heavy mana decks. Basically, the strategy of tapping mana every turn to play spells and cantrip and create threats is just a lot stronger right now than leaving land untapped and holding up counterspells (which has at time been really really good... see Gifts)
But with the printing of cards like Mentor, Preordain, Dack, JVP, Cruise, and Dig among others. Tempo or Turbo Xerox style decks have sort of gotten ahead in the arms race a lot, while Weissman style decks haven't gotten much in my opinion.
I think the Remora goes much better with the sit and wait style for obvious reasons. Although Cronistery Mentor is a thing. I just don't think its quite as good as the straightforward method of directly using that mana to pump out threats and fill up graveyards for the inevitable dig or cruise, I also think that stats prove that. Though I can't really say I would like to play against actual Cron on actual Cronistery Mentor. Maybe without so much Gush, it's gotten even better?
But add to all this, the fact that Fish is just bad against a pretty big portion of the meta... all the creature decks. That's my opinion.