As someone who has around a dozen 3-1s or better in MTGO dailies with Paradoxical Outcome decks (never Storm versions) on various accounts, I would seriously consider replacing this in my rainbow lands version over my currently singleton slot over Wear/Tear (or maybe Nature's Claim). The flexibility of cycling seems better than being able to hit enchantments out of the maindeck. That said, I don't think this is ever powerful enough as a sideboard card.
finding a situation where this is better than an old dual is WAY easier than that ... how about
you draw a land
you already have enough lands
This isn't a particularly rare or obscure situation. Still, I think you need a minimum number of "things that give you mana right now" to make most mana curves work - and you'd have to run this on top of that ... making more sense in a build with high land counts.
Honestly these card probably aren't competing with Duals as much as they are competing with other lands people run to support high land counts but mitigate mana heavy draws, e.g. Wasteland and Mishra's Factory
There might be a very specific sort of mana curve that makes comes-into-play-tapped lands less damning, for instance, if you had a really high concentration of 2 drops, but almost no 1 or 3 drops, you'd have more situations (turn 1 and 3) in which a CIPT land doesn't hurt you. I wouldn't consider running a card like this without looking into how you're spending your mana turn-by-turn.
Ultimately I'm intrigued by the cards, but at Cycling 2 I don't think I'm willing to spend time testing them. I think a one-mana cycling cost (colorless or otherwise) would might be necessary for vintage usability – especially in the current metagame where most decks are cutting extra moxes and don't have a glut of colorless mana to spend
@Serracollector yeah, Leovold decks are definitely gaining ground, but I don't think they want this as much as other decks would? They already have Claims and Trygons which could be better for them (Claim having synergy with the high Snapcaster/JVP count, Trygon being more controlling but perhaps worse in a post-Ballista world)
My thinking is that the "artifacts come into play tapped" ability is most useful for decks that care about tempo, or have problems with Paradoxical Outcome, and right now Green decks care the least about tempo or Outcome. Leovold decks are very slow/controlling and probably have a better natural Outcome matchup than other blue decks, and Sylvan Mentor is probably the most controlling/least tempo-centric version of Gush.
If this card was in White, Eldrazi would get a gigantic bump against shops (synergy with Displacer? insane).
If this card was in Red, then Jeskai Mentor and particularly Delver would have an interesting way to race shops decks.
If this card was in Black (obviously it wouldn't be, but hypothetically), it would be the best artifact removal spell in the color, giving straight U/b combo decks an option it never had before.
If this card was Blue, then it would have all of the advantages of being in red/black/or green, except castable off of basic islands which would be insane.
That's all I meant when I said that green was the worst color for this card (though pretty obviously the correct color from a game-design perspective). I don't want this in any green decks right now. I would have wanted this in some nongreen decks.
If I were still seriously working on White Eldrazi I would be curious about trying this out with a green splash (in part because Horizon Canopy is such an insanely good card), but ultimately I don't think the Eldrazi vs Shops matchup is bad enough to hurt the manabase just to run a shops hate card. (and this isn't a good enough anti-Outcome card to splash just for that, either)
@MaximumCDawg said in [AKH] Gideon of the Trials:
oes. He stops decks that want to kill you with Storm or with a single, really big threat while being a 4/4 for 3 on the attack. That's pretty decent. Good card.
Don't Planeswalkers that don't win games with any abilities need not apply? Not losing is not good enough period.
It has a considerable amount of value but connecting in the combat phase isn't the near-given it once was and a single -1/-1 counter per turn is probably an ineffective way to manage these already congested board states. Ophiomancer is probably superior to what this card attempts to do in those colors.
@thecravenone I think also the fact that it can be cycled to dredge like Street Wraith at absolute worst, it might wind up with a place. It's probably just fool's gold, but it feels like it could fit in a goofy way. Like pitch dredge post board, or something.
It's probably just endemic of the fact that right now vintage is chock-fulla-creatures and removal is very targeted aside from Toxic Deluge/Elesh Norn. These particular graveyard and discard interactions are very attractive though and maybe there will be more in the set costed better!
Been running this guy in a control-ish Mentor shell in the tournament practice room on MODO to rather good success (meaning at least slightly more wins than losses). Posting the decklist here for tips from more experienced players. Initially the list was more "passive" than "active" but it has gradually moved into a hybrid between aggro and control. Baral has been good, sometimes great. The cost reduction is good when "going off" with demonic tutor (cc =1 with Baral) or Tinker (cc = 2) or Yawgmoth's will (cc = 2). Looting is nice during normal turns but one needs to be careful to not loot without thinking through if you want to risk losing good cards in hand. Baral is obviously great against Thorn-effects, that's where he really shines. But anyways, on to the decklist:
3 Baral, Chief of Compliance
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Monastery Mentor
2 Dack Fayden
2 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Dig Through Time
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Mox Jet
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Polluted Delta
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Mindbreak Trap
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Containment Priest
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Stony Silence
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Spell Pierce
Sooo i have been testing this as a one of in a U/B key/vault outcome list. Its a pretty far break from the conventional lists i see people playing these days, but i think the card can have a place in many combo control lists. I had a chance to test it at a local event and went undefeated in the Swiss. As for Whir itself, the card won me the game outright 3 times on the day and pitched to force a few more (which i think is a pretty good track record for a one of at a small tourney). I can say the card is at least solid but i cant help feeling that there arnt better cards to be playing. I enjoyed the utility of Whir and am playing many one-of artifacts in the main and SB to take advantage of this. I would say if u r playing transmute artifact it is a strict upgrade, so there's that. Just my thoughts :)
My TPS/Mentor hybrid is something a bit like a Brian Kelly deck. I have a few singletons, like Kaya, that sort of push the boundaries of "normal TPS". I have a singleton Snapcaster for the '0' ability but I primarily just fire off the '-2' twice and then reset it with the '0'. I've got 4 Duress, 4 FoW, and 2 Mindbreak Trap so the +2 card advantage every turn is just very relevant. And occasionally, since I am a Tendrils/Necro/Bargain deck, the gain 2 life ability comes up. Not to mention it comes down off a Dark Ritual and another dual land.
I like it since the rest of my deck is kind of weak to Flusterstorm, Misstep, Mindbreak, Arcane Lab, etc. and it's nice having a Bomby threat to get around that
@CwaM Round 2 (after the bye): Kept a hand of Island, Tundra, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Thirst, Paradox (with a force on top off mull to 6) . Figured this hand played through Sphere or even chalice fine, and I KNEW my opponent was on shops (due to a ridiculously pimped Shop Deck he played in teh prelim). He opens with Trinisphere off a wasteland.
Game 2, I smoked him.
Game 3: He ends up with 2 vehicles which domed me for 8 (due to fetch + Fow + 5 + 5) and no cards in hand. Draws a Ravager, and puts me to 3. I fragmentize the Ravager, and then he draws another creature (Revoker or Factory?) , crews, and attacks for lethal, forcing me to hurkyls. He then draws a Triskelion, and I'm forced to counter it. On his next turn, he replays the vehicle and attacks me. Had I drawn my plows instead of my hurkyls, or had I drawn any draw spell, I win the game, as I had taken care of his spheres earlier.
Round 2: Game 1 I smash Grixis Pyromancer. Game 2, I mulligan to 5, and he has turn 1 FlippyJace, turn 2 ancestral/Ancestral and I'm out of it. Game 3 I kept a hand of 2 Islands, Sol Ring, Sensei's Top, Paradox, Thirst and open up Island, Sol Ring go. He opens Ruby, Sapphire, Island, Dack (steal Sol Ring). He has 2 cards in hand at one point with a pyromancer in play and dack, and is sitting on sol ring, ruby, sapphire, volcanic. I decide instead of Demonic Tutor for Swords or something, to Demonic and pass. He draws his next land. Demonic's for Therapy. Therapies me. Flashes back therapy. Gushes. replays a land, and Time Walks.
Sometimes, your opponent just has it.
Painter or Bloodmoon decks seem the obvious start. The RUG (Gush obv) Lotus Cobra/Chandra/Titans deck is gonna catch someone off Guard. Chandra can be both better and worse than jace. Its all about the cards built around it.
Panharmonicon? Meh, not a playable combo for Vintage per se, but I guess Torrential will see Modern play. Might be nice to see a thread on Panharmonicon in general, though. I'm a pretty busy dude, but surely there's a way to break this card that someone else here with more "spare time" can figure out...
I don't know about this. I have the quintessential Monastery vintage deck and it dominates against virtually everything EXCEPT Dark Depths (might be a fluke) and this weird B/W hate-bear deck I put together that this dude fits right into... Monastery is still my favorite to play in terms of sheer fun (except perhaps Glimpse/Haunting Echoes, which is unfortunately not that competitive overall), but this particular B/W deck beats it like 80% of the time.
It's a fine EDH combo card, works with lots of creatures and other things. In Vintage, though, having to pay (1) for the abilities makes it a nobo. It doesn't go infinite. We don't run Thopter Foundry / Sword combo, and that generates dorks even better than this does.
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