very intriguing card. Probably not good enough for vintage, but seems like a huge upgrade to every 3 CC mana of any color rocks.
Since most of the decks I play are colorless, the card would have been more interesting if it produced Colorless mana to me. So I could cast eldrazi and whatnot under blood moon.
Thank god we got another token generator for Gush decks... it's been too long!
More seriously, how much better is this than Talrand? While he might not give you X/X tokens, isn't the average power of guys you're creating more or less the same? With Talrand, your Probes and Preordains can become 2/2 fliers, rather than 1/1s. As it's the low CMC stuff that makes up the backbone of the Gush shell, I suspect that might be more relevant than than living the dream of triggering this with a Delve spell (though Gush and FoW are obviously nice).
The recursion is nice of course, but probably not necessary given the prevalence of tiny Jace and/or Snapcaster.
I dunno. Not convinced. But hey, that's never stopped me playing a fun-of before...
The big difference is that your token generator isn't a dude. That has pro's and con's. If Talrand for example was a 2UU Enchantment that would confer benefits and drawbacks.
It's an excuse to try to build with Scuttling Doom Engine. You know you want to. It's a shame that it is a sorcery.
Also doesn't seem terrible with Trike or a Tangle Wire that has zero counters, except that it would be really hard to cast in those decks.
I dont think letting your opponent play extra lands is a problem at all in most matchups, most of the time when you are loosing to shops you are struggling to even find one land drop a turn, this card doesnt make lands magically appear in your hand from a 15 lands deck which most vintage decks are. As far as gush is concerned, this card negates one of your spheres for one turn whenever your opponent gushes and that's about it in most cases.
Also if your opponent gets to 0 cards in hand when you are on shops, then things already went very wrong for you and this drawing them cards is the least of your worries (not to mention that you must have been playing pretty badly if you played this when there was any indication that they could dump their hand quickly or already had done so)
@Water0 it seems like we got a misunderstanding here. I thought we where talking about @spook s post:
Does not have haste - so much weaker against Dack.
to which @ajfirecracker replied that dealing 3 damage to a planeswalker on ETB still deals with the planeswalker, so having haste to kill the dack isn't necessary. I was understanding your comment on that
Deal 3.. to their planeswalker? It doesn't say player on there anywhere.
As that you misread the card and where trying to say that in fact it wouldn't handle dack. Thats why i reposted the card text. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I really like this card, but 4 cmc is a real concern. I could see a BUG type deck with a draw engine like:
2 Rashmi, Eternities Crafter
2 Sylvan Library
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest, though it's not really a draw engine.
And perhaps Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and/or Snapcaster Mage as well.
But Jace might just be better.
@BazaarOfBaghdad Thanks, I appreciate the sentiment, but I did already apologize for seeming rude. In written forums like this it can be very difficult to understand exactly what someone may or may not have meant, we tend to add out own imagined inflections as we read things.
I'm agreeing with Storm that this is an alternate WinCon in storm decks. You drop this guy turn 1, alongside a Gitprobe, and a Discard effect, or a ritual tutor, then next turn, you attempt to go off, if they fluster your storm spell your still smacking them for 13+ with a dude to the face.
@wfain Nothing close to thirst. Thirst you can pitch a card that is already in your hand. You also want to be the one to choose what is binned regardless if you have snappy/welder/ect. or not. For instance, I specifically want to bin my high CC with a Welder out, everything else I'd prefer to draw.
@MaximumCDawg You are correct your opponent deciding the pile, likely makes it dramatically worse.
Very interesting and streamlined decklist. I might have to give this a shot a tourney sometime!
Just a couple questions. Why not run Mox Emerald for added help vs. spheres and another way to cast flashback on grudge? Does the deck just not have that kind of room? Turn 1 Thing seems like it could be good at times.
Also, how were the two pyroblasts? Did you feel like they came up often enough as a blowout card? I might consider some number of steel sabotage if shops was giving me problems. Just a thought.
Anyhoo, really nifty list. I will have to test it out real soon. Thanks man!
As much of a fan of Misdirection I am (nothing feels better than stealing Ancestral Recall), it feels pretty weak and underwhelming right now. The last few times I tried it, whenever it was in my hand, I'd either wish it wasn't, or I'd end up pitching it to Force
I've long felt Necro was most useful in mid-range control decks (going all the way back to the black pump-knight/drain life decks) but it seems now it only sees play in storm decks. Does anyone have any experience with this? Perhaps with Monastery Mentor?
Necropotence was used historically almost exclusively used in two different strategic approaches: Aggro and Combo.
From 1995 until roughly 1999, Necropotence was used predominantly in Aggro decks. Then, in the late 90s, it was used in Pebbles combo, and then, most powerfully, in Trix.
In either Aggro or Combo decks, Necropotence was used to refuel and refill, allowing it to overwhelm the control pilot. Necropotence is the greatest card drawer of all time.
That said, blue- centered, multi-color control strategies have almost never used Necropotence to great effect.
The main problem with Necropotence in Control decks is this: Control decks often need multiple turns to set up and execute their finishers. Necropotence does not give you the time to do that. Necropotence really incentivizes you to win the game within 2 turns of resolving it - otherwise your life will be in a very precarious situation.
The secondary problem is casting it. Generating BBB in a control strategy is not easy, and Dark Ritual is usually paired with Necorpotence.
That said, there are decks that have used Necropotence that verge on control. In the mid-1990s, one of the lesser, but still played, Necro decks was mono black control, with a heavy discard suite, but with Corrupts and Drain life effects to buy more time and turns.
Similarly, I have seen Necropotence used to great effect in Lotus Cobra control decks.
Lotus Cobra allows a control pilot to accelerate Necropotence out quickly and generate the BBB without relying on card disadvantageous accelerants like Dark Ritual.
You have 2 cards left in your deck. Playing sin prodder will not change the odds of you top decking that card, which is still 50/50 because neither player knows which card of the 2 is the one you need. Yes after the fact you will know if prodder would have won the game because he cleared the crap off the top, but it does not change the fact that you have a 50/50 shot.
This is the example people needed to understand that Prodder does not allow your opponent to manipulate your draws or affect your hand. I was going to try to get the point across but you've done so elegantly.
I know, but I'd love if this card could count as a counter for counters on your graveyard... Maybe that would be too busted... Leaving 3 mana open would discourage opponents from playing Recall, Dig, etc, without double backup.
@MaximumCDawg (quick aside, the old site is going to get put back up at archive.themanadrain.com, but there were some technical troubles I haven't resolved yet - the old data should all be there when I fix things though)
I thought Alchemy was the most direct comparison, but if we're just talking about 2U card advantage spells in general, we have to acknowledge that Thirst for Knowledge is probably just better the vast majority of the time.
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