@brass-man

Fair I didn't really go into a huge amount of detail and just focused on the fun part of seeing your opponent bring in 8 dead cards.

Yes but I did say I was going out on a limb, it's a bold claim and could well not be true

As for the dead cards, the only completely dead ones are the bridges, you can cast Dread Return, it doesn't come up, you can cast the narcos & pitch them to FOW, Lab Man again is castable but not ideal and is deep Analysis.

Definitely easier to transform Oath into OmniTell as you said due to the creatures being in the deck already. The advantage with this transform is that you tend to get your opponent way more in the board with the exception of Containment Priest, however you can play around that.

TBH I think the suggestions from this thread of using Angel of Glory's Rise instead of Deep Analysis are good and I've made that change to the list, didn't fully agree on the Azami, sure it gives you slightly more resilience but Snapcaster probe seems a fraction better and limits the number of dead cards.

You can resolve Oath, untap and not win the game whether it be through not having a Forbiden Orchard or simply that Emrakul wont get it done, tbf Griselbrand does 95+% of the time I would imagine.

Testing has gone really well, it's been quite a long process. The original build had Concordant Crossroads, Cavern of Souls and was just a silly turn 1 win or lose deck.

I think that Thoughtseize is really fantastic in Vintage , so many decks have specific cards in them the deck is trying to find, like Oath, PO etc and being able to take the one card they need leaving the rest is pretty strong.PO especially will keep a hand that either has a PO, Tinker, maybe even a draw 7 and nothing else so the Thoughtseizes are pretty great there.

Aggro Shops is an awful match up game 1, Revoker & Ballista are close to unbeatable, improves a lot game 2 as they tend to weaken their deck a bit bringing in graveyard hate, needles etc and also use Revoker/ Needle to name Hermit Druid.

I like the PO matchup, the hand disruption is very good and they have no way to interact with Druid apart from usually a 1 of bounce card. The problem is they don't have a heavy sideboard for graveyard hate usually just some crypts.

Storm - good matchup, hand disruption is king here.
Oath is usually a good matchup made so by the Abrupt decays, but your show and tell plan can be a little less good if you don't have a discard spell and they draw Grisselbrand. Also unless there's Inferno Titan if you play a druid into an oath, your win percentage is not TERRIBLE, but not great either.

I haven't lost to dredge....yet, but their game 1 Leyline is close to unbeatable. The new Abrupt decay coming out of Ravnica looks like it will slot right into this list.

Big fan of your lists btw Brian, try this one out and see what you think

@bactgudz They are worth considering perhaps 3 shops and a mox might be right. The advantage workshop does have is that most of the time it will be a Savannah and you often need all the mana you can get in lands. Having played with 4 X Shops I haven't found it to be a hinderance that much of the time but yeah for sure there are occasions where you don't get the Riftstone, one small advantage shops has and it's only come up a couple of times is that sometimes casting the Serum Powder is the correct play if you need that bit more mana, usually you just hold it and discard to Bazaar.

This list still needs a couple of slight changes and playing 3 shops could be well be the best way to do it.

@childe_roland Crucible is very bad against Dack Faden, it does seem like there should be a slot for it in vintage lands, even in the board against shops but funnily it's not quite as good as you'd think.

@oestrus it’s typically not used, and it’s very situational. I mainly put it on the list as an additional option for people to consider. You are correct that dread returning it doesn’t really do much in the short term at all, and hard casting it would be very difficult. I actually haven’t tried it out myself either, but it has enough going for it that I felt it deserved at least some mention. I have seen it used a couple times in Dredge/Reanimator lists. But I’m thinking it’s more of a niche card that only works in certain builds and is very very situational.

This thread reminds me of why we need to see Channel Unrestricted. This needless oppression has to stop.

Congratulations to @neo_altoid for taking Seat of the Synod Mentor to a Top 8 finish in a recent Vintage Challenge.

@serracollector I'm just thinking of Company. I have no idea since I haven't tested. It just feels like... well, like a turn behind Workshop since you have to play a land to play Cobra and pass the turn. Workshop comes down and taps right away... Not trying to argue. Test it. Go nuts and let us know what happens. I'm glad you are interested.

@craw_advantage There is what you are required to do in accordance with the rules and there is what you consider ethical or moral or whatever. Since this is becoming a more in depth conversation, here is the relevant text.

From: https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-1/

"There are four categories of information: status, free, derived and private.

Status information is information that must be announced upon change and physically tracked by the affected player. Methods for tracking must be visible to both players during the match. A shared method is acceptable as long as all players in the match have access to it. At Competitive and Professional REL, methods that can easily be accidentally changed (such as dice) may not be used. Status information consists of: Life totals. Counters a player has attached to them. Continuous effects with no defined expiration within the game that apply to that player, such as Monarch or City’s Blessing

Example: If a player asks his or her opponent for his current life total, that player is required to respond truthfully and directly. Answers like, “You can figure it out” or “Twenty” when the player is actually at seventeen life are unacceptable.
These types of information need to be immediately pointed out when the change occurs.
A very common method of tracking life or counters on a player is with pencil/paper.
Free information is information to which all players are entitled access without contamination or omissions made by their opponents. If a player is ever unable or unwilling to provide free information to an opponent that has requested it, he or she should call a judge and explain the situation.

Free information consists of: Details of current game actions and past game actions that still affect the game state. The name of any visible object. The number type of any counter that isn’t defined as status information. The state (whether it’s tapped, attached to another permanent, face down, etc.) and current zone of any object or player. The game score of the current match. The contents of each player’s mana pool. The current step and/or phase and which player(s) are active.

A player always has to give all free information to their opponent accurately upon request. If that is not possible they should call a judge to help clear up the communication. If a player unintentionally misrepresents free information at Competitive Rules Enforcement Level, it may result in a Communication Policy Violation.

Derived information is information to which all players are entitled access, but opponents are not obliged to assist in determining and may require some skill or calculation to determine. Derived information consists of: The number of any type of objects present in any game zone that are not defined as free information. All characteristics of objects in public zones that are not defined as free or status information. Game Rules, Tournament Policy, Oracle content and any other official information pertaining to the current tournament. Cards are considered to have their Oracle text printed on them.

While a player is not obliged to assist his opponent with the Game Rules, Tournament Policy, Oracle text, or any other official information pertaining to the current tournament, a player may ask a judge for any of that information during a match. For example, if a player asks his opponent what a card does, for example, a player does not have to give all of the information about the card. His opponent may say that Vampire Nighthawk is a flying 2/3 creature and omit that it has Deathtouch and Lifelink.

Private information is information to which players have access only if they are able to determine it from the current visual game state or their own record of previous game actions. Any information that is not free or derived is automatically private information.

Private information is the catchall category for everything that is not free or derived information. For example, the contents of hidden zones (i.e., library and hand) and the identity of face-down cards in public zones are considered private information. Players are allowed to give their opponents false information about the contents of a hidden zone. For example, if a player casts Slaughter Games and names Scapeshift, his opponent may say that he or she only has three copies of Scapeshift in his or her library, even if it actually contains four.

The following rules govern player communication:

Players must answer all questions asked of them by a judge completely and honestly, regardless of the type of information requested. Players may request to do so away from the match. Players may not represent derived or free information incorrectly. Players must answer completely and honestly any specific questions pertaining to free information. At Regular Rules Enforcement Level, all derived information is instead considered free."

So again, at competitive REL, which is most (all?) Vintage events I have been at, there is no obligation to assist the opponent with derived information, or to call a judge for them. If players want to go above and beyond to assist an opponent, then there is certainly nothing prohibiting them from doing so.

Let's bump this thread once again and hope it will get a little more discussion - especially now that David Williams and Eric Froelich both played Hatebears in VSL the last weeks and did well (although I'm not really a fan of the build they played but I can comment on that another time if desired).

Personally I'm a big fan of Palace Jailer but only in certain builds. It has been very good in the one I posted originally in this thread (because of Ancient Tomb, Containment Priest and Eldrazi Displacer), but I do recognize that it can be clunky in more traditional builds.

I have been playing both Mono White, GWB and GW lately, and personally I prefer the Mono White or the GW builds. Black gives acces to some very good cards like Dark Confidant and, especially, Abrupt Decay and Demonic Consultation but I don't like either Dark Confidant or Abrupt Decay against Shops and what I've found is that you really want to focus on Shops first and foremost for at least three reasons. I've also found both Deathrite Shaman and Kambal, Consul of Allocation to be underwhelming. Basically Deathrite Shaman is too slow and I almost always wanted it to be an Elvish Spirit Guide instead. Kambal is also slow and I'd rather prevent my opponent from playing spells instead of him taking 2 damage off each spell.

@lordeng1ish I'm actually at a loss for what to do here. DRS is very important for the deck, and spyglass really does a number on it, making it a better 'thorn' to fight the decks mana production. Fewer thorns = fewer eldrazi, so strix is not as important either. I still really like Leovold's position in the meta and many have pivoted back to BUG, but having access to REB/Pyro is the natural progression there to fight other Leo's on the stack. The deck might actually move into a more keeper/4-5CC direction and utilize a City/Mana Confluence mana base to sidestep spyglass (since most current 3+ color decks rely on fetches quite heavily).

Any concern about the presence of Animation Module turning on your opponent's Mental Missteps game one, when they would otherwise be dead?

I updated the OP with the current list I'm running. I was trying out Balance for a bit, and it seemed great in several spots; but it never quite got there for me. I may try it out again, but I'd shaved a land for it which I regret. Back up to 15 which seems to be the sweet spot.

I went down on a Gush since it felt kinda weird at times having 2, but 4 may be the correct amount.

Also squeezed a Dack into the list which has felt great so far. I've been happy even just using the +1.

@Dumpsterac1d How about Tabernacle? Well, not exactly budget I guess, but it pretty much kills token strategies...

I played a pretty stock White Eldrazi list at EW. I ran into Shops 4 times and went 1-3. Overall I was 5-5. I beat Blue and Oath decks. I lost to Shops 3 times, survival once, and red stompy with 2nd turn blood moon both games.

White Eldrazi is a fine deck, but hopeless against Shops. I am not saying anything new or enlightening. This is almost my derpstep torch bearing. Can't beat Shops. Nothing new.

Survival is a bad matchup in my opinion. You need a revoker or Thalia 2.0 or wasteland. But Containment priests are great cards.

Too much to respond from thoroughly at the moment, but I will say this. I tested Cruise and don't like it without playing Dack Faydens. Dig is just better. I chose top to I could smooth my draws better. I don't want more artifact fast mana because I play this as a landstill/grindy control deck first and foremost. The worst thing would be playing a Standstill and drawing moxes. My list is a direct reflection of my playstyle. If I wanted a more aggressive oath list with faster and more aggressive plays, it certainly wouldn't be a landstill variation.

@Islandswamp I have been thinking about Omniscience builds for the past couple of weeks and here I see that your list is two months old. Oh well! In theory I think that the Omniscience builds are the best suited right now.

Also I think we can shave a Misstep for another spell right now, preferably something like an Abrupt Decay which interacts favorably with Priest, Displacer, both Thalias, etc.

Anyone have any updates on playing this deck? Looks awesome as I loved playing miracles in legacy.

Have you considered something along the lines of coercive portal to help get you to the combo quicker or is serum powder sufficient?

For reference this is the list I ran last time I was on combo shops, obviously quite a different build to yours and it's about a year old now

4 shop
4 tomb
4 buried ruin
Academy
2 city of traitors
7 solomox
1 Mox opal
Crypt
Vault
3 grim monolith
4 voltaic key
4 metal worker
4 Serum powder
4 Leyline
4 forge master
2 lightning greeves

Time vault
Helm
Blightsteel
Staff of domination
Sundering titan
Trinisphere
Memory jar
2 coercive portal
Spine of ish shah

SB
4 mistep
4 cage
4 mountain
3 smelt