[AKH] New Duals



  • So they have a new set of duals, count as 2 land types, thus fetchable, but they always ETB tapped, with the upside of having cycling. Could these have a place in Vintage? Cycling being uncounterable draw could have uses. The blue duals can be Gushed, then cycled with the floating 2 mana if not used. It has obv synergies with Knight of the Reluquary, Deathrite Shaman, Life from the Loam, and Crucible of Worlds, along with others Im sure that Im missing. What are other peoples thoughts?



  • @Serracollector if the cycling were 1 generic mana, I would say yes. At two generic mana, I don't think I want even a singleton. Either way, I like that wotc is working on getting us more Duals. I still prefer the shock-duals over these, if I had to choose between modern day duals.



  • Playable in Legacy lands?



  • yes maybe something like legacys lands could use these I was thinkn. Almost any deck with life from the loam. I was also thinkn one of these as a 5th trop or Usea could be used in Leovold decks to fuel dr shaman.


  • TMD Supporter

    I really like these, although I doubt they'll ever see play. I just wish they'd do stuff like this but with a higher power level and include them in Commander sets so we could have them for Vintage. Like if these could come into play untapped for some payment of life or whatever.



  • I think these are Commander only cards. I don't think they even make the cut in Modern - unless in very specific decks.
    Not even shock lands see much play in Vintage, so I highly doubt we'll have this see play in a highly tempo-oriented format like Vintage or Legacy.

    @BazaarOfBaghdad I'd say Legacy Lands has more use for the old 1 mana cycling lands than these.



  • If these dont cost a million $, Ill be trying them with Loam Dredge. Mana fixing utility lands are pretty rare. Being able to fetch these is a nice touch.



  • I could absolutely be wrong, but... these seem pretty bad. The best thing about these lands is that you can pay 2 to get rid of them and draw a different card instead.

    These lands are a great continuation of a great precedent (putting basic types on dual lands) but is not playable in Vintage. Or Legacy. Or Modern, probably. It's a good idea, and I hope they do more of it, but these particular cards are NOT the situational better dual that the Reserve List is looking for.

    1. Unconditional ETBT is really, really bad. What, was Wasteland not doing enough work? Getting out from under Tangle Wire too easily? How about we have our lands enter the battlefield tapped to boot!

    2. You never want to draw these. On turn 1, they are only good for timewalking yourself. That is, you can either play it and not have a productive land drop, or you can cycle it and gobble up your first turn's mana replacing it. Those are bad. In the midgame, you might deploy them to help you climb up your curve, but now you're giving up massive tempo to the opponent. In the late game, when you are flush with mana, you're just going to cycle this away because you don't want to draw it.

    3. You (just about) never want to fetch these. I'll freely admit and celebrate the fact that these duals continue to make the Mirage fetches and some green acceleration effects much better in casual and EDH. Good times. However, the fact remains that in our format, you can fetch out a ABUR dual land. If you're fetching, then you can get a land that ETBT or one that does not, and they're both equally vulnerable to Wasteland or Choke or Flashfires or whatever. I don't know of any decks that want to be able to fetch 5+ of a single dual, and I can't imagine why you would.

    4. The places where you can make an argument for the utility of these cards are extraordinarily narrow, and the upside is not large even then. Basically, it seems like the one big place these are likely to give you more flexibility than an ABUR dual land is when you Gush, return it to your hand, and use the 2 mana you floated to cycle the land and draw more gas. Alright, fine, you now have the option of making Gush draw more cards but not generate any man for you. However - how hard up were Gush decks for more card draw, again? Given the option between paying 2 to cycle a land in a land-light deck, and paying 1 to Preordain to dig even deeper AND make a Monk token, why would you ever opt for the former?

    5. These do not have the same utility that the Onslaught cycling lands do because they cost 2. Life from the Loam engines are effective in some Legacy decks precisely because the lands are so cheap to cycle. I don't think these kind of decks would be interested in replacing any of their engine cards with Amonkhet duals.

    Again, however, I'm totally stoked these were printed and I think this absolutely the way of the future. Dual lands with basic land types are great for casual brewing, cube, and EDH, as they interact so well with older fetch cards. Cycling is a fine ability and these are fine cards. They're just not competitive in eternal, I don't think.



  • @MaximumCDawg said in [AKH] New Duals:

    These lands are a great continuation of a great precedent (putting basic types on dual lands) but is not playable in Vintage. Or Legacy. Or Modern, probably. It's a good idea, and I hope they do more of it, but these particular cards are NOT the situational better dual that the Reserve List is looking for.
    ...
    Again, however, I'm totally stoked these were printed and I think this absolutely the way of the future. Dual lands with basic land types are great for casual brewing, cube, and EDH, as they interact so well with older fetch cards. Cycling is a fine ability and these are fine cards. They're just not competitive in eternal, I don't think.

    Thanks MaximumCDawg, now I don't have to write my own post in this thread!



  • @MaximumCDawg

    I agree that these are not playable in vintage, but these will 100% be played in modern and legacy.

    Miracles will play the white blue one.

    Lands could play the green/red one, and other decks like stoneforge control and maverick could run 1-2.

    I think this cycle will surprise people. Whenever you get a magic card that is auto include in every single cube, you need to take another look at it.



  • @thecravenone Great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ! :)

    @gkraigher said in [AKH] New Duals:

    @MaximumCDawg

    I agree that these are not playable in vintage, but these will 100% be played in modern and legacy.

    Miracles will play the white blue one.
    and other decks like stoneforge control

    Really? I'm trying to picture a scenario where this makes sense to play. The idea is that Miracles would want to be able to dig past its lands in the late game to get some gas, but potentially have several times in the early game where it does not mind playing this tapped or fetching it out at the end of the turn, right? If this tradeoff worked, why wouldn't Miracles just swap out some of its basics for Onslaught cycle lands? It's already playing 6 basics or so anyway.

    Admittedly, I play more aggressive decks in Legacy, but I don't understand what you would cut so that you can play a land that costs 2 to cycle.

    Lands could play the green/red one

    It could, but again, is Lands even maxing out the number of Caverns and Thickets it can already play?

    and maverick could run 1-2.

    Maverick gets Horizon Canopy, though, and doesn't even max that out usually.

    I think this cycle will surprise people. Whenever you get a magic card that is auto include in every single cube, you need to take another look at it.

    The Zendikar duals with land types are good for cube, too, and they don't see play anywhere in eternal. These lands are fine but I put their power level somewhere just above the Scry lands from Theros. It's a fine ability, occasionally it's very good, but it's just not powerful enough to justify the awful ETBT drawback.



  • @MaximumCDawg

    Cycling on an opponents turn can trigger a miracle.

    I think people will be surprised by how good these actually are.



  • I HIGHLY doubt Legacy Miracles plays this. It can't afford the tempo loss of a tapped land. Also, having 3 open mana to cycle this and trigger a miracle is very, very situational and hard to do with Miracles.



  • I think a lot of you are missing the utility of these lands. Just think about how often Gush decks can get flooded with lands. This is the first ever utility land that can be Gushed off of.



  • @vaughnbros It comes into play tapped and costs 2 mana to cycle... if it costed 2 life to cycle... or if it was Scry 1, draw 1 instead :P



  • @vaughnbros well compared to this, Basic Island has the special ability of casting Ancestral Recall the turn you put it into play.



  • This!

    alt text

    Seriously though, these aren't that great.



  • @wappla If you are mana flooded with a Gush in hand and a fetch. Getting your singleton copy of a Cycle land to Gush off of isn't that crazy.



  • Does Lotus Cobra get any better with these? Or to put it in another way, will the combination of the two make these playable in at least Modern if not as part of a Gush-Bond engine in Vintage?? I'm doubting it but I'm not sure if anyone smarter than me considered their interaction yet.



  • @vaughnbros said in [AKH] New Duals:

    @wappla If you are mana flooded with a Gush in hand and a fetch. Getting your singleton copy of a Cycle land to Gush off of isn't that crazy.

    If the only defense you have for a card is a narrow situation started with,"If you . . . " then the card is not that good.


Log in to reply
 

Looks like your connection to The Mana Drain was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.