New possible Hatebear printings to deal with the format?

  • So it occurs to me that there has been a lot of negative press lately about Gush and that folks are calling for its restriction but what if we just printed new cards that dealt with the archetype better? Since I have been predominantly known as a pilot of "Hatebear" decks I would like to make this a thread about possibly future printings. I will get the ball rolling with a concept a discussed with my friend today on the phone. First let me preface by showing a natural progression of 2 cards that lead to the second one being VERY good in Vintage:

    Imposing Sovereign
    Thalia, Heretic Cathar

    Now I'm pretty sure folks know the second card, but not all of you might know the first card. This is because the first card is unplayed in Vintage the second card is readily playable. They share a color, creature type and half of the ability and Imposing Sovereign costs 1 less to cast so what gives you might ask? Why is Sovereign totally unplayable if half of its ability is on a readily playable card? The reason is that two abilities is exponentially better than 1 in Vintage (especially if one of the abilities also affects mana development). So now I'd like to reverse engineer a different card to demonstrate how a similar transition could lead to a great staple card for the format. First I give you:

    Angel of Jubilation

    Next I give you my proposed hatebear:

    Righteous Theurge

    1W - Human Cleric


    If a player would pay life to cast a spell or activate an ability they must pay 1 or that spell/ability is countered.


    I believe this card would solve a lot of issues with Phyrexian Mana, Fetches, Force of Will and also hit Dredge a bit and Arcbound Ravager.

    What do you guys think? Way too broken? Possible format defining? Other ideas for different cards? I want to spark some discussion, but I'd also like to ask a couple things of you:

    1. Make sure the card isn't just silly nor would it break other formats (cause then it won't see print.)
    2. Make sure you defend your choice.
    3. You may also comment on previous choices and try to "improve" them or make them more fair, but please be civil and constructive.

    Happy theorycrafting!


  • TMD Supporter

    Here's one:

    1B - Doomsayer
    Human Cleric
    "At the beginning of your upkeep, destroy all creatures"

  • @desolutionist This wouldn't deal with mentor at all. They would just cast another one later and own you. That would be my first critique of such a card.

  • Monk of Balance
    Human Monk
    Each player may only put one non-land permanent onto the battlefield per turn. If a permanent would enter the battlefield after one already has it is instead exiled, and its enter the battlefield effects are countered. (Myr battlesphere, etc etc)

    Great with flash creatures. Bad for combo and Mentor. Interesting versus MUD.

  • Sister of Runes
    W - Human Cleric

    Pay 2 life: Target creature you control gains protection from the opponent of your choice until end of turn.

  • @wappla said in New possible Hatebear printings to deal with the format?:

    Sister of Runes
    W - Human Cleric

    Pay 2 life: Target creature you control gains protection from the opponent of your choice until end of turn.

    Ooo. Pretty spicy. I like it. Maybe if it was just 1 life that might be a bit more practical? Too powerful?

  • Ok folks, after talking to Danny Batterman about my design he thinks it would be way to broken so I've adjusted things in my initial post to reflect a new critter. I gave it flash to make it able to "counter" a fetch if the opponent doesn't also have mana up.

    Ok, next card idea:

    Master of Orbs

    1W - Human Wizard

    Each noncreature spell that would cost less than 2 mana to cast costs 2 mana to cast.

    As Long as Master of Orbs is untapped, players can't untap more than 2 permanents during their untap steps.


  • Only 2 mana? Sounds quite playable, and won't affect other formats too much so it could be printable. Unfortunately it hits storm really hard (and at this moment storm is not a deck to punish imho).

    Mad Mage - RR
    Human Wizard
    If a player would draw a card from a blue instant/sorcery, he/she discards a card instead.
    Whenever a white creature enters the battlefield, Mad Mage does 2 damage to it and 2 to itself.

    It attacks blue and white, as red did in the old times.

    Priest of blood - 1RR
    Goblin shaman
    Sacrifice priest after you have been assigned damage: prevent all that damage and deal it to all other creatures and opponents instead

    Say goodbye to alpha attacks (mentor, pyromancer, mud, eldrazi, dredge...)

  • TMD Supporter

    We should not be asking for hatebears, we should be putting answers in colors like black and green. White is becoming much too strong as of late and we need to fix the color pie. We need cards that will encourage people to not just choose white because it has all the the answers.

  • Last I checked, there were two rather strong Anti-Gush hatebear decks. One just won Euro Champs and the other won EE6 a couple of weeks back. I think you are misunderstanding what the actual gripe is, Storm...

  • Master of Orbs devastates PO, Mentor, Belcher, Storm, Dredge, Grixis, and Landstill even. It would completely hands down wreck tge format. Way too strong. As for other colors? How about

    Terra Shaman
    Human Shaman
    Split Second, Hexproof
    When a player casts a non-creature spell, deal 1 damage to him or her and each creature he or she controls plus 1 damage for each spell played before. (bad on wording, but meant to be anti mentor/tokens, even with buffs etc.)

  • Card design is fun, but it isn't really about vintage. Moving to off-topic.

  • @Brass-Man

    How is card design specifically for Vintage NOT about Vintage? Like seriously, wtf?

  • @Stormanimagus Well presumably because most user designed cards don't actually see the light of day. So it's not really going to affect Vintage in any way unless somehow one of the designs here ends up being made, which I find quite unlikely.

    On topic, I'm not a fan of designing hatebears to address problems (both real and perceived) with a metagame. I don't find it very fun facing random human who I've never seen before on the battlefield whose text reads "you cannot do x", where x is something that people typically do in Vintage. I think we've had enough of those designs and they're not interesting in the slightest, in my opinion.

  • In the same way that a thread about Contract from Below in an otherwise-vintage deck wouldn't really be about vintage strategy - it would be talking about a homebrew format with a similar, but different, list of legal cards.

    As an ex-game designer I'm fascinated by what makes cards and metagames balanced, and I'll admit that learning card evaluations skills is useful, but it's not exactly vintage strategy.

  • Palinchron Spirit Guide
    2U - Spirit

    Remove Palinchron Spirit Guide in your hand from the game: Add U to your mana pool.

  • Ahem, that would be Cephalid Spirit Guide obviously.

  • @Serracollector

    absolutely NOT giving a blue a spirit guide! Have you no shame guys? HAVE YOU NO SHAME!!!???

  • @igooazoo

    Palinchron Spirit Guide
    2U - Illusion Spirit

    Hexproof, Flying

    Remove ~this~ in your hand from the game: Add U to your mana pool. If this mana would be spent on an Instant or Sorcery, you may cast that card ignoring all cost modifiers and other casting restrictions imposed by other cards in play, and that spell gains uncountability.


    @Stormanimagus - I have no shame.

  • @ChubbyRain

    I would ask you not to spam this thread with frivolous drivel. Thank you.