[AKH] Archfiend of Ifnir - Good Enough for Dredge/Grixis Control?



  • This is one of those cards where on the face it looks sort of awful for the format, but when I started to think of it in terms of a control shell that could provide a near constant Toxic Deluge when there is looting involved it started to get a lot better. It still might just be powerfully bad.

    Dredge seemed to be the only place where you could actually get the thing into play with Dread Return or something, but since there are ways to get high cost permanents into play, Grixis Control also seemed to be a likely candidate where you'd also be running Dack and potentially JVP.

    Every turn it could potentially waste out Mentor and token creatures, including zombies in the dredge mirror. I could also see utter silliness happening with things like Wheel or Windfall. Not that this is necessarily what those decks want to be doing, but still at 5/4 it could be decent?

    But is it good enough at all? My initial reaction is probably not, but there may be some techy folk who could do better than I can off the top of my head.

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  • @BandsWithOthers There's a card named Elesh Norn. :P



  • Since I dislike this kind of mocking remarks on spoiler, I'll say a bit more: Archfiend is bad because it will mostly just be for -2 each turn (because you'll probably be empty handed when it comes into play ), so it's at BEST an Elesh. Also it probably won't work the turn it comes into play since there's a high chance you'll already have bazaared that turn. ALSO, 1 spell saves Mentor for a turn (and you don't want to be bazaaring on their turn).

    It makes Street Wraith a bit better, but that's fringe.

    You should also post an image and description of the card, since it's boring to have to google the card everytime.

    It's just that this is all so clear that I made that Elesh comment, but well, here it is.



  • Hah! Fair enough '-) Just thinking are there cases where you might want this? Or is this just a stinker?



  • In Vintage Dredge I really can't think of a single one :P

    Now, this COULD is better than Elesh against opposing big creatures like Grisel and Eldrazis. Since they're counters, you could eventually kill their TKS and Smashers. But I don't think you'd bring Elesh against those decks anyway (maybe White Eldrazi but Elesh is probably better there).

    I was wrong on Mentor though: this WILL kill Mentor since they're counters so -2/-2 will stick and 1 spell won't save it for more than it would save from Elesh.

    There are other disadvantages though: Elesh kills everything even if the opponent Plows it. This doesn't. Elesh also prevents Mentor + Time Walk kills, which this doesn't.



  • @fsecco This is why it kinda gave me pause. I love some Elesh Norn, but I was wondering if it might provide some kind of techie solution either in particular cases as well some decent beats. I'm just not super comfortable/knowledgeable when it comes to Dredge and the mysteries therein.

    AKH is going to be a graveyard heavy set to begin with and it looks like -1/-1 is going to be something that pops up again and again. Even just in the last hour a bunch of cards got spoiled that look like they could have at least some Dredge synergy if not playability.



  • @BandsWithOthers said in [AKH] Archfiend of Ifnir - Good Enough for Dredge/Grixis Control?:

    @fsecco This is why it kinda gave me pause. I love some Elesh Norn, but I was wondering if it might provide some kind of techie solution either in particular cases as well some decent beats. I'm just not super comfortable/knowledgeable when it comes to Dredge and the mysteries therein.

    AKH is going to be a graveyard heavy set to begin with and it looks like -1/-1 is going to be something that pops up again and again. Even just in the last hour a bunch of cards got spoiled that look like they could have at least some Dredge synergy if not playability.

    What cards are you referring to?



  • Oh, nothing spectacular (I may have just not looked very hard last time I checked in, so I don't mean to overrepresent what may or may not be new news to anyone), just things with the new embalm effect or cards like:

    alt text

    It's still way way to early in the spoiler process, just seems very Dredge friendly if you have cards that work from the gy, have triggers from discard and also create -1/-1 counters. Could be entertaining!



  • @fsecco said in [AKH] Archfiend of Ifnir - Good Enough for Dredge/Grixis Control?:

    @BandsWithOthers There's a card named Elesh Norn. :P

    @fsecco said in [AKH] Archfiend of Ifnir - Good Enough for Dredge/Grixis Control?:

    Now, this COULD is better than Elesh against opposing big creatures like Grisel and Eldrazis. Since they're counters, you could eventually kill their TKS and Smashers. But I don't think you'd bring Elesh against those decks anyway (maybe White Eldrazi but Elesh is probably better there).

    Brainstorming a few other times this might be better than Elesh in Dredge:

    You're playing Urborg in the main, so this guy might be castable

    It's already out and you've got >1 Bazaar in play

    You've got >1 of these guys in play and something to make you discard



  • @thecravenone All of those seem either unlikely or moot points.
    You'll never have 5 mana in Dredge.
    Playing a creature that only gets good when you have 2 Bazaars is not the place to be.
    If you got to Dread Return 2 creatures, they better be better than this guy.

    But yeah, under those conditions they can be better than Elesh. ;)



  • @thecravenone I think also the fact that it can be cycled to dredge like Street Wraith at absolute worst, it might wind up with a place. It's probably just fool's gold, but it feels like it could fit in a goofy way. Like pitch dredge post board, or something.

    It's probably just endemic of the fact that right now vintage is chock-fulla-creatures and removal is very targeted aside from Toxic Deluge/Elesh Norn. These particular graveyard and discard interactions are very attractive though and maybe there will be more in the set costed better!


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