April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy



  • @joshuabrooks no way, never give up the pro/con Gush debate - now we just re-litigate how much better the format would be with Gush vs how much worse it would be with Gush forever and that will really be fun /s



  • As a shops player, I'm sad because shops was good against gush. However, I'm happy because I LOVE traditional bomberman and this may open up a up the door for paradoxical or TFK bomberman decks.



  • @Naixin said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

    As a shops player, I'm sad because shops was good against gush. However, I'm happy because I LOVE traditional bomberman and this may open up a up the door for paradoxical or TFK bomberman decks.

    It's tough to justify not just playing Mentor in a non-Oath Salvagers combo deck. It's pretty good on it's own with Tops, they're all Humans and then if you have the combo you don't even need a spellbomb, you just have infinite whites.



  • Next time I play Vintage, Mishra's Workshop will be restricted.

    Maybe some day in the future, people won't constantly bitch about the B&R list and Wizards will have to make an evidence-based decision.



  • @nedleeds I would play mentor. Have a spell bomb or mentor as the win con with salvagers. Maybe even a tasigur.



  • An amusing realization just came to me, and this isn't meant with any sort of bitterness...I haven't had the opportunity to play since the announcement, but prior to it I was playing a BUG deck with Gush and Leovold and my record with it was fine, but without Gush I have very little incentive to keep playing that deck. I only just now realized that the next most interesting deck, to me at least, is Mentor. So this announcement will actually push me into playing Mentor.



  • This is why we need tangle wire and thorn restricted. Tangle wire into tangle wire? 4 copies of thorn that could end your game for two mana? 9 sphere effects that are just about a must counter. Are you kidding me? 9 sphere effect cannot be balanced for the game. Just because there's 8 sphere effects does not mean that they shouldn't be restricted.



  • I'm afraid to say we've reached the point where we have to restrict Sudden Shock. An uncounterable spell that can potentially end the game for 2 mana has no place in Vintage.



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  • Shops was half the daily cashes last night. Rich Shay, who spent the better part of the last year using his celebrity to moan about Gush homogenizing blue decks, played Stax.

    No one made the argument that restricting Gush would hurt Workshops more vocally than Mr Shay, and yet a day after the announcement, he is playing Workshops. The gross hypocrisy aside, this once again illustrates how idiotic the argument against Gush was. It took the very person saying restricting Gush would hurt Workshops a full 24 hours before registering Workshops. Just amazing...


  • TMD Supporter

    @wappla It's not hypocrisy to make a deck choice for a tournament. Rich made predictions about what a Gush restriction would do to the overall metagame eventually but, apparently, made a different prediction of what it would immediately do to the metagame in this daily. Or wanted to employ some misdirection before the P9. Or just wanted to play Stax. Whatever.

    This deck choice doesn't mean hypocrisy. It also doesn't mean anyone made an idiotic argument. It's a deck choice for four matches in a daily event.



  • Shops is obviously not going anywhere, because even decks designed to 'beat' shops can't do so consistently on the draw if they don't get to cast their spells. Oath was traditionally great vs. shops but now with fleetwheel cruiser (+factory activating it) the matchup is much better for shops. And walking ballista can now deal the final points of damage without giving oath another turn.

    Landstill is likely to next best option to combat shops, but again i think anyone claiming a great shops matchup is vastly overstating their win %. Moreover, before there were eldrazis, it was reasonable to sideboard 6-7 artifact hate cards and call it a day, but now blue decks have to also contend with the tentacle menace.

    Long story short, thorn decks will continue to be dominant, but we will see a wider range of blue decks, and combo still sucks =/.


  • TMD Supporter

    Chalice isn't around anymore to derp you out of your moxen. Lodestone Golem has retired from the days of bashing your face in before you can play some land. Want to beat shops? Add more mana to your deck and start cutting some of the dead maindeck cards. Oh, and this same thing will help your Eldrazi matchup, too.

    You can't be first in the blue mage arms race and expect to have a good matchup against decks built to punish your greed.



  • @cutlex said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

    Chalice isn't around anymore to derp you out of your moxen. Lodestone Golem has retired from the days of bashing your face in before you can play some land. Want to beat shops? Add more mana to your deck and start cutting some of the dead maindeck cards. Oh, and this same thing will help your Eldrazi matchup, too.

    You can't be first in the blue mage arms race and expect to have a good matchup against decks built to punish your greed.

    Ok, this makes my deck better against 30% of the field. That doesn't seem like a great way to win tournaments as a Gush pilot.



  • Does anyone have that Rich Shay Stax list? Just asking...for a friend...

    Seriously though. If people are saying that expanding the blue mana base to combat thorn effects is the answer, does that mean a potential return to slower but heavier BUG control type lists with Mana Drain?

    How have the mentor lists been fairing online in the last couple of days as people go to tfn and delve etc? Is Mentor still a thing 48 hours later?

    I agree with @hankzhong that Landstill and other mid-range even fish style strategies might be a good place to start? More plow? More Moat?? Heh.


  • TMD Supporter

    We're two days into to the new metagame and already the doomsayers and quitting has begun??

    I personally think we'll experience a quick renaissance of great new decks (like when Lodestone went and we saw WW, Eldrazi, new combo and a super exciting first week of VSL), and then back again to shops and mentor.

    At the end of the day, I think the issues in the Vintage community right now are more about the high speed of the changing meta, than any particular card(s). Some like a slow predictable meta, and some want new decks every week. Not sure having a format where half your deck is already predetermined by the B&R list can support that.



  • Question really becomes: does the Mentor list in its current form continue to exist? Or will we see a rise in Paradoxical Outcome and/or a Planeswalker list? Joe Brennan has a good starting point and I feel that focusing more on Planeswalkers with Moat is going to be a hot deck.

    Personally, I'm replacing the 2 Gushes I can't play with Preordain and Sol Ring. Clash At The Cradle is going to be interesting with all the Mentor players tweaking their lists. Balance might also see a hit in these lists since Gush basically fueled that card.



  • @wappla Just for the record, the first daily event after the restrictions Rich was on Oath. He switches decks around quite a bit if you watch his stream. I don't think he was being hypocritical.



  • So much speculation. How about we brew some decks, play some games, and then jump to conclusions?



  • @enderfall No! Jump to conclusions NOW!


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