As Foretold rules clarification



  • I just want to verify I'm looking at "as foretold" properly.

    As foretold has 3 counters on it. I got to play monastery mentor. My opponent has:

    1. trinishphere in play - I have to pay 3 mana
    2. sphere of resistance in play - I have to pay 1 mana

    I go to play paradoxical outcome with 4 counters on AF. My opponent has

    1. trinisphere in play - I pay 3 mana
    2. sphere of resistance in play - 1 pay 1 mana
    3. thorn/thalia - I pay 1 mana

    I have 1 more counters on AF and want to play gitaxian probe but my opponent has

    1. trinisphere in play - can I pay 2 life for 1 of the 3 mana I have to pay if I announce I am using AF to play probe? (I'm pretty sure no)
    2. sphere of resistance in play - I just pay 1 mana and like the last question, can I pay life for it?

    I have 5 counters on as foretold. I play snapcaster mage targeting force of will in my graveyard. I can use AF for the FoW and pay no mana, correct?

    Thanks for the clarifications.



  • @Khahan

    A1: Yes, you have to pay 3 for Trinisphere.
    A2: Yes, you have to pay 1 for Sphere of Resistance.

    B1: Yes, you have to pay 3 for Trinisphere.
    B2: Yes, you have to pay 1 for Sphere of Resistance.
    B3: Yes, you have to pay 1 for Thalia or Thorn of Amethyst.

    C1: You must spend at least 3 mana no matter what. You cannot pay 2 life because you are casting the spell for a cost other than it's casting cost and so can't also pay it;s casting cost in addition to that alternative cost. Incidentally if you were just casting Gitaxian Probe from your hand you may also pay 2 life if you want but you cannot pay less than 3 mana even in that case. If you wanted to pay 2 life you will still pay 3 mana on top of the two life when casting it from your hand without using As Foretold.
    C2: You must spend at least 1 mana. You may spend only one mana and two life or you may spend two mana, one of which is blue. Your choice.

    D: No, you cannot replace the flashback cost for a card using As Foretold. You may only replace the casting cost of a card using As Foretold. Flashing back a card is an ability that allows you to cast an enabled instant or sorcery from your graveyard whereas casting a spell is a special action. If you were targeting the Force of Will using a Jace, Vryn's Prodigy activation you would be able to cast it for free because that ability allows you to cast the card using any available means rather than giving the card flashback.



  • I think MTGO does not handle phrexian mana correctly with Trinisphere, so if you are going to play online, it might not work as intended.

    The other night I could swear I saw Soly cast Dismember under Trini for just 1 colorless and 4 life.



  • C1: Are you 100% positive? I thought they changed this a while back to count paying 2 life for probe counted as paying mana so you'd only need 2 more trinisphere. You are paying 1 phyrexian mana by paying 2 life but its still 1 mana.

    From gitaxian probe rulings I found this:
    "As you cast a spell or activate an activated ability with one or more Phyrexian mana symbols in its cost, you choose how to pay for each Phyrexian mana symbol at the same time you would choose modes or choose a value for X."

    At EE6 in Baltimore I was discussing this with one of the floor judges and he explained that they consider the 2 life cost like a mode of payment, but whether you pay mana or life you are still paying 1 with regard to trinisphere. So even paying the life trinisphere sees you paying 1 and only taxes 2 more on.

    D: good catch on the flashback. As I was trying to parse these scenarios out in my head I thought of flashback being an alternate cost so it wouldn't apply then completely missed that SCM gives a card flashback. But thanks for the catching the spirit of the question too and a full answer on it.



  • @Khahan they changed how Convoke works to line it up with how Delve works, in that both count as "aternate ways to pay mana" but Phyrexian mana doesn't actually count as "mana payed" as far as Trinisphere is concerned. I hate the ruling but that is how it is.



  • @H. said in As Foretold rules clarification:

    @Khahan they changed how Convoke works to line it up with how Delve works, in that both count as "aternate ways to pay mana" but Phyrexian mana doesn't actually count as "mana payed" as far as Trinisphere is concerned. I hate the ruling but that is how it is.

    So convoke and delve both help meet trinisphere's requirement but phyrexian mana doesn't? No wonder I wasn't following what the judge was trying to tell me that day.

    Thank you both for the answers on these questions.



  • @Khahan that is correct. Intuition would probably lead most to assume that Phyrexian Mana works the same as Convoke and Delve, but it doesn't actually. Indeed, I think even MTGO "thinks" this way, which I'm sure leads to even more confusion from players (and probably even some Judges).



  • @Aaron-Patten nailed it.

    @H This is an MTGO bug. As a reminder to @MSolymossy and others, intentionally exploiting bugs in tournaments can result in a ban - it happened to the player who decided to submit a deck with Gleemox in a Vintage Daily. I'm not trying to say there was intent by anyone, just educating people on what can happen on MTGO.



  • @ChubbyRain I honestly don't think he knew the correct ruling and when the program let him do it he just did. I was about to respond in chat, but was cooking dinner and not in position to type.

    Apparently the bug has been around for over 2 years, from a quick Google search. You'd think they'd correct it already...but what I am talking about...



  • @H. I agree with you that it's not intuitive or even counterintuitive which is why players and judges have had issues with this ruling for as long as I've played Vintage. It's just to caution anyone who finds out about this bug and thinks it's ok to exploit it. As for MTGO...yeah...right?...sigh :(



  • @ChubbyRain frankly it would probably be easier to change the game rules to match MTGO than the reverse, which is absurd but true...



  • @ChubbyRain I actually did NOT know that was a bug. I tried it because I saw it, and it made some sense to me that maybe Phyrexian Mana covered the mana cost.

    Rest assure I will never do that again, as I don't ever want to play MTGO in a way I could NOT play in Paper.


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