Yawgmoth's (Bargain Not Will) Unrestrictable?

@vaughnbros said in Yawgmoth's (Bargain Not Will) Unrestrictable?:

All the builds people are bringing up for fastbond sound and look dramatically different than anything that is currently played. Isnt that a prime reason for unrestriction?

Well, you know I'm certainly on board. 🙂

@Hrishi I mean, I agree. Should we now start a new thread for every potentially unrestrictable card? I was actually intentionally not doing that... We could run a list for Bargain... I think it's pretty clear that would be really busted though.

@Topical_Island I don't think zuran orb is good for the deck as it really wants to get null rod out to shut off moxen in tandem with destroying their lands and sphere effects. The combo is a secondary part of the deck and only something you focus on once you've established control, I feel like this deck should focus on locking out the opponent of mana and then ride it's incremental advantages to victory. you don't need to go infinite, once you have crucible lock and spheres recurring barbarian ring every turn will be enough.
However I feel like the list I was testing was a little too vulnerable to non creature permanents, as it has no way of removing them. I was thinking maybe 1-2 copies of smokestack would be an option, seeing as it synergizes perfectly with the deck and can help you interact with permanents like rest in peace, pithing needle or oath of druids. I think Decay would be a stretch with the manabase. Nature's claim in the sideboard might be better as well.
Overall this kind of deck reminds me of welder UBA stax. A real prison deck with a draw engine that can be absolutely fantastic with the right draws but has some real consistency issues.

So PLEASE DCI unrestrict fastbond it's not degenerate, a ton of fun and it adds diversity to the format since it's not strictly worse nor strictly better than current prison decks.

@Hrishi said in Yawgmoth's (Bargain Not Will) Unrestrictable?:

This thread has really gone far off the original topic, but I have to say I am really enjoying the discussion of trying to break restricted cards to prove they are either too broken or safe. If people would like to do this more often and with more cards, I'd love to help out too. I'm sure this could be done on freeform or something?

I really like this idea as well, if properly documented it might be able to shake up some things with the current b/r list. It would take a lot of work and time, for each card you have to test and tune multiple shells against the meta and anticipate how the meta would shift in response to the unrestriction of said card. Test many games to have a somewhat representative sample.

@Macdeath But if you fail to Null Rod them, but do succeed in Zuran Orb... don't you lose next to never, to just about any deck in the format and win almost all those games? I think the only corner cases where you lose are Jace ultimates and Bomberman?

last edited by Topical_Island

I think the deck can afford to play both Null Rod and artfact mana /orb as well as draw 7s. anything that allows you to take advantage of the fact that you can play all the lands while your opponent only gets one. Mass draw for both players is going to be mitigated by the huge tempo advantage provided by Fastbond.

@Topical_Island most blue decks have ways to kill you with infinite life, either through planeswalkers or blightsteel colossus/emrakul. Anyway i think glacial chasm is the better card for the combo (since it prevents fastbond from dealing you damage), it's a land so its uncounterable, isn't affected by null rod/spheres and is powerful on it's own/with crucible in many matchups.

I might leave it up to @Brass-Man whether or not we should have a seedy little thread on here somewhere where we could test Fastbond shells, and perhaps others in the future. Fastbond has really yielded some interesting conversation! Theorycrafting aside, this has been an interesting discussion of how we could generate what could pass as normative community driven data on the unrestrictability of certain cards.

From commentary by @Macdeath @vaughnbros and @Hrishi it seems that Fastbond appeals as something that people would "work" and playtest to unrestrict because it opens up new lines.

The real tests it would seem are first, "Is the best possible Fastbond (or any card in question) deck balanced enough against the current meta that its presence would not be disruptive or homogenizing" - Gauntlet testing

Second, "Does the potential unrestriction boost existing pillars up and above their current level of power, and as such to ultimate format dominance" ...I don't know how much anyone would like to see two turn 0 Mishra's Workshop's into Crucible for instance...BUT as long as other shops variants are strong who knows?...I mean...green MUD?....Grud?... +1 to the comparison to Uba Stax

Then, especially in the case that what emerges is a combo deck, "Would existing decks, with minimal changes to hate, be able to fairly compete against the deck in the current meta without simply succumbing to a coinflip match." Like Flash/Hulk as several mentioned earlier. Already people point to how MM and Fragmentize (and Wispmare! Woo!) exist and could make short work of Fastbond.

I'm on board if there's a good way to test it out, especially online.

Null Rod can be ran alongside darkheart of the woods and crucible all day long with zero inhibitions.

Just had a funny thought pondering hate against this deck...could Ankh of Mishra finally have its moment in the sun???

@Macdeath Looks like about a quarter of top8 decks have any way to deal with it. Even then we are running all sorts of answers to their answers. I'm not sure why we are so convinced that Orb is bad with no testing. It looked pretty good when I ran it against Silent Mentor... but whatever.

@Topical_Island Because I don't want to get in a situation where I'd have to choose between rod and zuran orb or get in a situation where i cant combo off because i deployed a null rod earlier in the game. Add to that the fact that zuran orb does effectively nothing unless you have the other two pieces, it's a dead draw in a deck that already has considerable consistency/opening hand issues. Glacial chasm is a much better option seeing as it has synergy with crucible and can buy you crucial turns against decks like dredge, mentor or in thorn mirrors on it's own. You can also go ham with bazaar digging for it without having to worry about keeping a card in your hand and recur it with crucible, meanwhile it is nearly impossible to interact with. It has none of the problems zuran orb suffers from and has considerable upside.

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