Yawgmoth's (Bargain Not Will) Unrestrictable?

Channel sounds glorious. I'd love to see it because it will create a new type of combo deck.

last edited by Hrishi

I think it's time to start looking at the b&R list much more carefully for possible unrestriction targets. In our podcast, we simply felt that Windfall and Bargain are the two most natural places to start, but there may be others.

I don't think Necropotence is save to unrestrict because it isn't easy to counter. It has been my go to spell specifically because its immune to Flusterstorm, Pyroblast, Mental Misstep, etc. The only spell that counters it is Force of Will; It's too fast for Mana Drain and consistent turn 1 Necros would even blow out Shops. (But Blue decks could go back to Spell Pierce or Commandeer to have a fighting chance)

Yawgmoth's Bargain is a safer bet because it requires a much greater investment of resources. (not just three lands, or Land+Ritual, or Lotus)

I also agree with Channel and Windfall.

last edited by Guest

imho the cards that i feel that could be unrestricted are flash, yawgmoths bargain, and memory jar, flash would open up a whole new deck, bargain isnt good in multiples so all that happens is you get it more often, and memory jar isnt played as much as it once was as far as i can tell and at worst you get to have a 4 of 5 mana draw seven, only thing that would worry me about jar is welder.

Edit: i almost feel dig through time may be safe to unrestrict because the free draw spells are restricted but thats questionable, its still a very powerful card but will be harder to get it for uu without gush and probe but i could, and probably am, wrong about that.

last edited by letseeker

@Smmenen Arg! Stupid selective hearing! Thanks for the set straight.

Unrestricting Yawg's Will gives the PO storm deck a bit of a boost, but I don't think it breaks it. Outcome would probably want to run some combination of Outcomes and Wills, since they fulfill a very similar function at different parts of the game/combo.

Both Outcome and Will probably end up drawing some gas, creating some storm, creating some mana and gives a reasonable shot at finding the card you need to win. The restrictions on them are that Outcome has inherent randomness (you don't know that you'll find what you want, while Yawg's Will turns can be calculated) and Yawg's Will can't be used until later in the game/turn when your graveyard has sufficient gas (while Outcome can find its own gas). I think the outcome deck settles on 4 Outcomes and 2 Wills in the end.

I think the most interesting thing unrestricting Yawg's Will would do would be giving a bit more life to duress+ritual storm decks, by giving them options other than folding if their key spell gets countered and they can't find the singleton Yawg's Will. Would be great to play Burning Wish again.

EDIT: Sorry, skim read and thought we were talking about Will.

last edited by twerkshops

I remember reading a @Smmenen article years back about going through hypothetical unrestrictions; maybe from SCG or something. I specifically remember Steve saying Channel is the most dangerous card to unrestrict. I just don't get the fascination with people thinking it is okay. If channel is unrestricted, get your leyline of sanctity, mindbreak traps and the like ready. RG Belcher and Oath will be everywhere.

Of course Flash could be unrestricted. That was known when it actually was restricted. The deck is not that resilient at all, and is cholk-full of unplayable creatures beyond the combo... but "people" didn't like playing against it so it got restricted.

By that logic, we should unrestrict Brainstorm, for no other reason than it is the one I want to play with the most.

I'm not trying to be combative, but I find this thread incredibly frustrating.

The idea that Yawgmoth's Will or Flash could be unrestricted lacks so much historical context that it makes me retroactively question things the suggester has said before. This is not unique to this thread.

The idea that it "was known" that flash wasn't resilient and didn't need a restriction is genuinely confusing to me. In my experience it was the most consistently fast and resilient combo deck the format has ever seen. It had an upsettingly good Shops matchup, and the only thing that kept it in check was 4 Gush 4 Brainstorm 4 Scroll 4 Ponder Combo-Control decks.

I try very hard to stay neutral on TMD about B&R issues, because I feel like my position as site admin is an unfair power imbalance. Still, in the wake of the recent restriction, when I see threads like this, I can't help but wonder. Is the fact that Wizards is paying more attention to vintage now a net negative for the format?

Brassy dropping truth.

Also: do Vintage players just hate each other? Why would you ever want to Channel Emrakul or Flash Hulk someone?

@Brass-Man Heya - So feel free to lock or boot the thread. I had misheard Will instead of Bargain as I listened to SMIP in the car and figured if Stephen and Kevin were talking about unrestricting that I'd ask and see what folks actually thought could be conceivably unrestricted. Obviously it's pretty contentious! I just figured it might be a chance to focus on potentially positive unrestrictions 🙂 Will seemed pretty out there to me, and it was - because I was not listening. So absolutely no combative intent taken, it was just my error.

BUT I do think it is interesting that even though, with or without historical context, that people are sort of Meh about will coming off of the list (even though they did in fact, say Bargain).

@ribby Clearly Vintage players hate each other. I mean. We are the sadists who want to play Griselbrand and Emrakul for free, Tendrils for One Zillion, Draw our whole decks, take infinite turns, use one card combos, and Sphere our opponents into a turn one hard lock. The only conclusion is we are the sociopaths of MtG '-)

@ssasala said in Yawgmoth's (Bargain Not Will) Unrestrictable?:

I remember reading a @Smmenen article years back about going through hypothetical unrestrictions; maybe from SCG or something. I specifically remember Steve saying Channel is the most dangerous card to unrestrict.

Are you talking about this? http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-what-is-the-least-unrestrictable-card-in-vintage/

Time Walk was. Channel wasnt close.

Or this: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/17491_So-Many-Insane-Plays---Exploring-Possible-Unrestrictions--Designing-for-Balance--Channel--and-More-.html?mobile_site_continue=1

@Brass-Man I certainly think it is a negative...

Considering the impact that the printing of Dark petition had on ritual storm, I would be cautious of unrestricting a card that had a similar mana cost, is far more powerful and is less susceptible to commonly played hate (dark petition is weak to flusterstorm and grave hate).
Some might say that bargain is not easy to cast right now, but that's because of how the current curve of the deck is. I'm pretty sure you can build your deck to reliably cast bargain on turn 2 and win on the spot.
Let's not forget that this could also make show and tell problematic.

EDIT: There is also no reason to unrestrict something this impactful for ritual storm. Regardless of the amount of play it is currently seeing it's still a pretty competitive deck, unrestricting one of the most broken cards in the deck could easily push it over the edge.
As a ritual enthousiast I think windfall and memory jar should be candidates for unrestriction long before bargain even enters your mind, because those wouldn't change much (if anything) to the existing deck.
I'm guessing that most of the people saying bargain is safe either don't have experience with the card or are trying to analyze it from a blue mana efficency perspective (if you cant get to 6 mana with your ritual deck you aren't going anywhere anyways). There is no card in storm combo that lets you win as easily as bargain, to put it in perspective Mind's desire (aka a lot of people's boogey man) doesn't come close in terms of consistency and requires a lot more investment than bargain does. Will needs set up, necro has it's own tensions, and draw7s are symmetric.

last edited by Macdeath

@Macdeath I tend to agree with you that Bargain seems a little iffy on those terms. Though whether it would swing DPS into a dominant position is something that the older hands could probably be more reliable to say. I enjoy Storm a lot, and I equally enjoy draw sevens (when I'm casting them).

To tread lightly, and hopefully more responsibly, in the vein of @Brass-Man and not turn an eye from history, could anyone shed some light on the Windfall restriction? Were crazy things afoot with Windfall when it got the boot?

I somehow imagine Windfall might be a safer unrestrict than Jar, as (while I might be Totally off base) it seems like it could be heinously abused by workshop.

@BandsWithOthers said in Yawgmoth's (Bargain Not Will) Unrestrictable?:

@Macdeath I tend to agree with you that Bargain seems a little iffy on those terms. Though whether it would swing DPS into a dominant position is something that the older hands could probably be more reliable to say. I enjoy Storm a lot, and I equally enjoy draw sevens (when I'm casting them).

To tread lightly, and hopefully more responsibly, in the vein of @Brass-Man and not turn an eye from history, could anyone shed some light on the Windfall restriction? Were crazy things afoot with Windfall when it got the boot?

I somehow imagine Windfall might be a safer unrestrict than Jar, as (while I might be Totally off base) it seems like it could be heinously abused by workshop.

I don't think storm could ever dominate the format since the skill barrier is high (meaning fewer players tend to play it compared to it's actual power) and there are a lot of ways to hinder storm nowadays.
But the fact that the deck can win turn 1 a considerable amount of the time would reduce the quality of gameplay like 4 LSG 4 chalice shops did.

Windfall was restricted alongside tolarian academy and stroke of genisus as part of the first wave to nerf the Academy decks (which could make windfall reliably draw 7 cards since the deck played 4x time spiral and fow was the only free counter at the time).
It currently barely sees any play even in combo decks that play draw 7s. The only deck I can think of that likes windfall is mono blue belcher.

Jar is powerful but not really what a control workshop deck wants to do. It's bonkers with metalworker but that type of workshop deck hasn't seen play in a while and would add diversity.
It's pretty good with goblin welder too, another marginalized strategy. But it doesn't directly slot into a current top tier deck. It might make two card monte actually good.

@Macdeath Current PO Storm runs Windfall and Jar, though it seems that people are on the fence (based on previous feedback) about whether or not PO will just be a flash in the pan and DPS will take back its place as the dominant storm strategy.

In fairness: Many of those PO lists look a Lot like Belcher.

I guess it would be interesting to see if indeed as Wizards intends, the move away Gush will yield fewer mentor decks, which in turn will let Workshop play fewer spheres. It would be super cool to see Welder and Metalworker decks!

Also, you make a fair point about the quality of game play. I think that is something that is a little ephemeral in a lot of these discussions. People seem to cry foul against particular strategies, but has there been a moment/thread/meeting of the minds where folks in the vintage community have talked about trying to quantify (or heck, qualify) this? It may be one person's 'druthers is another's 'ruthers. But there have to be things like people generally agree that being consistently decked on turn 2 is no fun (unless you are on the Decking end), but it's okay to be sphere locked turn 2 because a well constructed deck has enough answers...etc.

It seems like a place for another thread, but I would not want to rehash old ground! But could always make a neat poll.

@Brass-Man Pardon... you are right and that was really simplistic so let me rephrase what I said. Saying it was know was.... well just wrong because who really knows. When Flash was restricted, what I heard a lot of (and this is another problem... that any one person only ever hears a small sliver of the overall discussion) from folks on both sides of the discussion, people who couldn't stand Flash and people really enthused about playing it, both seemed to agree that the deck wasn't "good". By which they meant it wasn't a "tier one deck", a parlance that got thrown around in those days. That it couldn't hang with top decks in tourneys? In fact, in hindsight I'm not really sure what that meant. I suppose in the parlance of modern logic, it meant that I wouldn't go plus winning percent against the field.

The reason that I remember tending to hear, was just that people hated the idea of Flash. That when it went off, it happened so soon in the game... something like that. My recolection that the accepted reasoning was not that Flash was over powered, but that it as perverse. In the same way that I run across people occasionally arguing that Dredge need restriction, and as I talk to them, it becomes clear to me that they just don't like playing against Dredge. That is my recollection of Flash.

But maybe I'm totally wrong. If you say so, then that makes me think I might be. I appreciate that you try to stay neutral on here. That's probably good in the long run I guess, but many times I wish you were less neutral. If that happens at my expense, especially if I put my foot in my mouth. Ok. Certainly don't worry about it when it comes to me. Provoking the opinions of people like you is a big part of why I post on here (so friggin much).

I don't understand what you mean in your last sentence about the attention of Wizards being a net negative. Can you explain?

To everyone else, the best way to settle this... (by best I mean to follow wizard's operative definition of the word, in which it is synonymous with "most fun") The most fun way to settle this is clearly just to play match games, in which each player just "unrestricts" one card and builds a deck around it to examine it's broken-ness. I'd be happy to take Windfall against Yawg Will. Heck, I'd be happy to take anything really. Channel and Balance would be great!, but I'm also sure they are totally busted.

last edited by Topical_Island

@Brass-Man said in Yawgmoth's (Bargain Not Will) Unrestrictable?:

The idea that Yawgmoth's Will or Flash could be unrestricted lacks so much historical context that it makes me retroactively question things the suggester has said before. This is not unique to this thread.

No offense, but why? I'm not saying any of the above cards are good ideas, but whenever a card that has been restricted "forever" is brought up as a candidate for unrestriction, older Vintage players herald it as the end of the format. It happened with Regrowth, it happened with Gifts, it happened with Thirst. Hell, it probably happened with Burning Wish. None of those cards made any massive impact on the format at the time they got unrestricted.

I even have a personal anecdote here, the week Gifts Ungiven was unrestricted, I top 8'd a tournament with Ritual Gifts and I had people tell me all day to "enjoy it while it lasts and that Gifts was not going to last 3 months". Yet here we are.

It probably makes sense, because such players have what I call "negative nostalgia" with such cards and thus cannot be fully objective. The game is obviously very different to when the above cards were restricted, and sometimes lacking and/or ignoring historical context is a useful tool in evaluating a card in a different environment.

Note that I don't think Yawgmoth's Will should be unrestricted, before anybody jumps on this post and bites my head off.

last edited by Hrishi

@Hrishi Ok GAME! You pick a card you think could come off the list, and I'll do my honest best to make a list that shows its still broken (Anyone who thinks that a card should stay on the list, really ought to be able to show you a list that demonstrates it's brokenness.)

Andy, it's totally cool. Bite my head off anytime man. Just keep the site up.

last edited by Topical_Island
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