Yawgmoth's (Bargain Not Will) Unrestrictable?

@Serracollector I second that crucible feels like the most likely place to break fastbond. In some kind of lock combo in Fish with wasteland and Rod maybe?

Heh. Wonder if it could power on some kind of landfall strategy? Lotus Cobra was a thing for about five minutes there!

Can't think of too many other instances beyond (sans gush of course) where you would want to be playing out land like that? But then. Perhaps I am merely too scrubby to see it.

@Topical_Island You got a Break Fastbond deck yet???

Fastbond would be fine in a world where everyone is playing 4 Misstep anyway. If you ask me the biggest argument against unrestricting it is aesthetics since beta ones would skyrocket.

last edited by Cambriel

@Cambriel Hah! You know I actually prefer unlimited since that's when I came to the game. Black border is still "special" in my mind and not just every card printed after 8th edition 🙂 Fastbond is everything I want art in MtG to be in some ways but that is for a different thread...

How would you break it, esp against misstep? Or would it just be misstep bait?

@Topical_Island If there's any red at all (ancient grudge?) the deck should be called "Breakbond, Mountain" is all I'm sayin'

#VintageIWishICouldQuitYou

@BandsWithOthers

4 Fastbond
2 Horn of Greed
5 Fetchland
3 Tropical Island
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Island
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
2 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
26
1 Zuran Orb
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Duress
1 Chain of Vapor
32
3 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Gush
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral
1 Dig Through Time
2 Big Jace
1 Brainstorm
20
4 Lotus Cobra
1 Eternal Witness
1 Progenitus
1 Bitter Ordeal
22/60

Wheres the desert land that does 1 damage to opp when it enters the battlefield? And no crop rotation, genesis wave or blue suns zenith?!?!? Come on @Topical_Island. 😉

Bitter Ordeal is sexy tho.

last edited by Serracollector

@Serracollector I have 3 lists... one is all in crop rotation, but it was losing a lot more to my wife's Mentor Deck, via stalling out to Mental Missteps. Getting Rotations Missteped really sucks, but sometimes is just goes of. No doubt that if you just want maximum, smash the goldfish bowl as hard as you can, Crop Rotation is where you want to be.

Blue Sun's Zenith... that is hot. I could test that. (Is it better than just another Horn?... I love the alternate win-con! Maybe take out the Ordeal for it!... Though with Ordeal I reckon you only need to hit it for 3-5 and you have killed most decks.)

Is it plausible to unrestrict Ponder? It's not really better than Preordain and I don't think we would see decks playing 10+ one mana cantrips. Most people don't even play 4 Preordain. When Ponder was restricted (at the same time as Brainstorm, Gush, and Merchant Scroll) I thought it was a little overboard

@desolutionist I actually think Ponder would be even more dangerous than Brainstorm because of Tendrils Decks. The shuffle feature is very good for stitching together that sort of kill.

But you are a lot better player than me, what do you think? I just remember pre-restriction watching decks Ponder then Shuffle then Ponder then Shuffle then Ponder and then... Oh hey! Found it! You're dead.

@Serracollector said in Yawgmoth's (Bargain Not Will) Unrestrictable?:

Rod completely shuts down zuran orb..... And landstill? Really? So you drop fastbond turn 1, if they dont have derpstep, then what? Drop 2 lands and Standstill and now you have 2-3 cards in hand and hope one is FoW and the other is a blue card in a 3 color deck? Yea sounds way overpowered......

Landstill doesn't try to 'go off' with Fastbond. It drops it with or slightly before/after Crucible, wipes your board with Wasteland/Strip Mine, puts up a couple of Factories to chump/kill any creatures you already have and fetches a couple more islands to hold up Mana Drain.

You don't want it in your opening hand; you want to draw into it, because it makes Crucible and Wasteland significantly better. It wouldn't be a Fastbond deck running 4. It would probably run 2.

last edited by twerkshops

@twerkshops Agree about how Landstill would use it, but if it were broken at 2 Fastbonds, you would see at least some Landstill decks at least using 1. I'm seeing zero top 8 decks like that...

@Serracollector a deck with 4 Paradoxical, 4 Fastbond, 4 Horn of Greed, 4 Lotus Cobra looks pretty strong. I don't have a list yet, but this might be the brokenness we were looking for.

@Topical_Island Not saying it would be broken. I'm against it because amping up Wasteland and Crucible probably isn't healthy for the format. Restricted Fastbond forces decks to only run it if they can consistently abuse it every time they draw it (e.g. 4x Gush decks), so you won't have decks popping up with the primary gameplan of assembling Fastbond + Crucible.

@twerkshops Right... the game we are playing is basically, prove the restriction. We are trying to come up with lists that break cards ON the restricted list so as to prove that they should stay on the list. (Easier than proving that they should come off, since you can't ever really know without actually bringing them off, or creating some big data model of the entire metagame... cough cough, wizards?)

@twerkshops Why are crucible and waste unhealthy? Would a Fastbond, zuran orb deck even work in the currect meta?

@vaughnbros I never said Crucible and Waste were unhealthy. Currently they are both value cards in decks that have other primary game plans. Unrestricting Fastbond makes Crucible a viable Plan A and I'm not sure Consistent Land Destruction Combo is a deck we want in the format.

I do not believe Zuran Orb is playable, unfortunately. If you really want to play a gimmicky combo, you can just assemble Fastbond+Crucible+2xFactories without the Zuran Orb and Channel+Fireball somebody to death if you have more life than them and they don't have blockers.

last edited by twerkshops

@twerkshops A consistent land destruction combo deck sounds great! A nice change up from having Shops as the only option for mana denial. The deck would still have to find ways to recover from creatures, and other threats after it establishes its mana lock. That isn't exactly easy in the current meta.

I also think you are overestimating how good Crucible+Fastbond would be without Zuran Orb in the current meta. Creatures are very real, and taking a bunch of damage to establish a mana lock would be very costly in certain situations.

@vaughnbros I never said anything about taking a bunch of damage to establish a mana lock.

EDIT: I've been solitairing URg Landstill with extra Fastbond for the last hour or so and am having way too much fun to keep saying that it should stay restricted. 😉

last edited by twerkshops

@Topical_Island said in Yawgmoth's (Bargain Not Will) Unrestrictable?:

@desolutionist I actually think Ponder would be even more dangerous than Brainstorm because of Tendrils Decks. The shuffle feature is very good for stitching together that sort of kill.

But you are a lot better player than me, what do you think? I just remember pre-restriction watching decks Ponder then Shuffle then Ponder then Shuffle then Ponder and then... Oh hey! Found it! You're dead.

Ponder is fine in storm decks, slightly better than preordain at finding one specific thing, but preordain has more value on subsequent turns and is better in decks with redundancy. Neither of them are even remotely close to brainstorm.
If that effect was really that good in storm you would see more lists with preordain(s). The only decks that really pose a threat with ponder are(were) decks with gush (enabling a critical mass for gushbond decks and making gush aggro control decks slightly better than they were already).

Oath of druids on the other hand would really benefit if ponder was unrestricted as it is much better than preordain at finding one of your 4of combo pieces. It would run smoother which is something it desperately needs.

Fastbond could have been unrestricted when gush was still legal and it would likely not have been problematic, seeing as mentor gush was the superior strategy to combo gush because of how horrendous the thorn matchup is for combo gush, and having multiple fastbonds doesn't magically solve the thorn problem. So even with unrestricted fastbond the metagame would have likely still been centered around mentor gush and not the gushbond engine.

Without gush abusing fastbond simply isn't that interesting, 3 card combos aren't good enough for vintage. The power level barrier for combo decks is extremely high considering that you have to measure up to Oath of druids, time vault, tendrils and monastery mentor.
I would love to see a value deck with a combo finish based around fastbond and crucible/Life from the loam but I highly doubt such a deck would be competitive enough in vintage. The combo is to easy to shut off with either mental misstep or artifact removal/null rod, something like abrupt decay would annihilate it.

@Macdeath So you're conclusion is that Fastbond is safe to unrestrict, and that Ponder is unsafe, but not due to storm combo but rather due to blue tempo decks?

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