Dredge going into Summer 2017
vaughnbros last edited by
@Chronatog No I haven't. I would generally avoid creatures that I don't want to Dread Return, and that I can't get back from my yard.
@rikter another reason I've found is the popularity of storm based strategies, people usually want to run misstep/fow/mindbreak against those decks which changes a lot of the numbers involved in the decks construction.
I can see that. To me at least, storm is basically the Vintage-iest deck there is and yeah, those counters are a good way to fight it, but I disagree with those choices on philosophical grounds.
I would rather fight storm with unmask, and just speed up my clock by running fatestitcher, or dual haste guys. I didn't sleeve bazaars to play a tricky game.
I haven't gotten to play in the midsize tourneys much bc of school, and my list is still tilted towards the gush meta. I haven't played a ton against PO, and didn't really appreciate it's share of the meta so NYSE was a system shock of sorts. Going forward I think I'm going to move away from elesh/rider and just go fast.
vaughnbros last edited by
The online and paper dredge meta is mostly different because Dredge as an archetype is only innovated by a handful of individuals. There isnt a ton of overlap of players who are both online and offline dredge players.
@rikter When Ritual Storm was popular, I found that maindeck Misstep and Leyline was quite effective against them. It slows them down enough that you can realistically race them, and it's not actually necessary to even finish them off as long as their hand is ripped to pieces by Cabal Therapy. Relying on racing purely with "going fast" could leave you open to Ravenous Traps. However, Misstep and Leyline are both quite weak against Paradoxical Outcome. "Going fast" with Fatestitchers and Sun Titans/Griselbrand and whathaveyou would definitely be the best against Paradoxical Outcome specifically, but it would likely leave you worse off in other matchups. I personally think that maindeck Unmask and Leyline are where you want to be right now, if you're going with Traditional Dredge.
@DeaTh-ShiNoBi I am currently running maindeck leyline and unmask, so my changes would mostly be to the dread return package. Right now I have ashen rider and elesh norm, and I'm on the fence about them. In order to fit the leyline I had to cut lands, and I've really been feeling it post board against shops.
@rikter You can probably cut a Golgari Thug or two if you're running the full package. As for the DR target, I would be uncomfortable without a way to lock up the game. FKZ is the most standard choice and that's what I run. I've seen people use Iona, which I've never tried, but I'd like to, to see how it plays, so that's probably fine too. Going without either one seems risky, though. Other DR targets are luxury secondary targets for niche situations. They're fine to have if you've got the room, but it's okay to run without them.
I ran with FKZ as my only Dread Return target for quite a long time and it works out fine. Dread Return on Golgari Grave-Troll is decent enough if you can't manage to find FKZ or you exiled him with Serum Powder. I'd say at least 90% of the time, the game is locked up by the time you cast Dread Return anyway because of Cabal Therapy. Right now I run Elesh Norn alongside FKZ as a luxury DR target primarily because it's good against Shops if my Bridges get destroyed.
Is it possible to play Vampiric, Imperial Seal, and Crop Rotations rather than Serum Powder? All of these cards seem so good in games 2 and 3, especially with Dark Depths combo. (Of course this would mean playing your own Missteps)
They cards you suggested are all able to get missteped. That would mean if they have misstep you can't find bazaar. The serum powders always can be used and can't be interacted with or disrupted.
Well you Misstep back obviously. Or use alternative methods for fighting the obvious cards that people play. And the deck as a whole is easily disrupted that's why it doesn't win. The tutors would help mitigate that disruption, wouldn't they? (By making Depths more reliably quick and make more keeps in game 1)
Someone had recently argued that Rav Trap is not great against Dredge because it can be Therapied. Well if dredge can't resolve a 1 mana spell then it isn't resolving those Therepies and will lose to Rav Trap every time.
Anyway, something I'm going to test out for fun.
matori last edited by
Hi Shawn, sorry for late response, I was afk.
In case we cut Serum Powders we want to find way not to relying on Bazaar entirely. Relying entirely on Bazaar means we will mulligan to oblivion in 1 in 17 games on the play and 1/20 games on the draw. There is some serious math here calculated by @ajfirecracker on old TMD. In case we want to cut Serum Powders we should include something like Cephalid Coliseum, Careful Study and Breakthrough (former two are vulnerable to Missteps) to power out explosive finishes, but again people prefer uncountable Bazaar activation instead of playing spell which can potentially be countered. Vampiric Tutor and similar cards can be great tool in sideboard for Depths/ Lab Maniac/ Hermit Druid variants of deck, and I remember @vaughnbros included it in some of his wining lists. We should test this more seriously as I feel there is huge potential behind it, just players are not willing to go out of comfort zone with traditional lists.
@desolutionist it sounds crazy but you could try running Gamble as well. I have put it into my list in the past with some success and I've run it with a vamp tutor. I put my serum powders back In but it was more of a mana base issue and the sideboard gets very crowded trying to bring in everything for game 2-3.
But I agree with you and @matori, I think it's a really cool idea though and can speak to it being successful. Just a thought.
Speaking of taking dredge n new directions, does anyone know if red dredge has been tried in vintage?
I play dredge in modern, and there dredge is based around red rummage spells like faithless looting and cathartic reunion. It also uses insolent neonate, but that's meaningfuly lower power than the other two.
Another powerful red draw spell that's in vintage but not available in modern is winds of change. It's a timetwister windfall hybrid for R. If you can get one dredge spell in the yard, Winds of change could get you 5+ dredges for 1 mana which is probably game winning if it resolves.
This probably doesn't work in pitch dredge, but maybe in a build that plays mana sources.
@walking.dude I think it is an interesting idea, but the same as above you run into a lot of spells vulnerable to misstep. I have a friend that tried a red dredge list in legacy and it went decently, but without Bazaar he did have some slow draws. It was a weird mix of super explosive and really bad.
I think one main problem is it starts to get mana intensive. Like assuming your one drops are vulnerable to missteps, you need two mana producing lands for something like cathartic, 3 for a flashback of faithless looting. If you run your own missteps to protect something like winds of change it would work great and like you said it would be amazing if it resolved. Something like goblin lore could be interesting as well, it is a lot of draw for very cheap
Having said that I think it does present some interesting opportunities that an opponent would not see coming. Something like dread return on a dragon mage or a combustible gear hulk would be devastating with dredges in the yard and probably instant win if it goes off and presents the opponent with a really hard decision.
I think this could be something to look into and do some testing with for sure.
Red has a lot of potential and is undervalued a lot in vintage, for those willing to step out of the traditional lists it could pay off.
Hmm. Also in the brainstorming alternate dredge lists space, seems like the slow trips would have a lot of synergy as a free way to generate extra draws. Play an urzas bauble on your first turn, bazaar on their eot and sac the bauble and you get on extra draw trigger on turn 2. If you play enouph of these to reliably have 2 in your opening hand, that gets you 10 or so cards deeper and could shave a turn off your goldfish.
Having a lot of air probably also helps if you board into a different combo (for example a lot of current builds of pitch dredge board into depths combo)
Here is a draft list that combines all these ideas. Totally untuned at this point since I don't have mtgo while on lunch break and any actual testing needs to wait till I'm home from work.
Untested deck, to goldfish after getting home from work
4 street wrath
4 loadstone bauble
2 urzas bauble
4 mishra bauble
1 dragonlord koligan
4 faithless looting
2 dakmore salvage
Some extra mana and auriok salvagers
Maybe some squees and red blasts
Beats cage and priest, still loses to leyline.
ssasala last edited by
I haven't played Dredge in a very long time. I have played against it a lot. The best part of piloting Drede was that it's non interactive. FOW, Misstep, and the like aren't great against. By playing actual spells in the deck you are turning on your opponents spells. I don't think dredge should be looking at making game 1 more broken. Game 1 has a high probability in the Dredge players favor. They need to focus on combating the hate in games 2/3. The baubles even turn on opponents COTV on zero. But like all things, test it out and prove the nay-Sayers wrong.
It could be really interesting to board into something like this. The issue there is that you won't be able to deal with hate because the sideboard would go almost entirely to boarding into a new strategy. It does get you deeper in the deck as long as it works, but you also might have less agro going on if you just keep hitting baubles and the like
I have been messing around with a list involving Hollow ones and Combustible Gearhulk. Both have proven to be pretty useful. Interested to see if they turn into anything
Yeah, I think your concern is reasonable. I'm going to test to be sure though. The payoff is not just a (potentially) faster game one, it's a set up for transformational side board. Right now depths is the main transform, but maybe others could be used with the right main deck setup.
I got a few goldfishes in last night, but no real games. Went out with friends to local bar trivia, so testing had to be abridged somewhat.
Some quick conclusions:
need to change the bauble mix. I had forgotten loadstone bauble had an activation cost, so that probably goes down to 1 copy with urzas and mishras at 4 each. Found this in the very first game
I think this list does make dredge a bit faster game one. I seemed to be killing on turn 2 a lot, even sometimes with hands without bazaar. Though in real games, I'm unsure if those hands would have been keepable against an unknown opponent as misstep on faithless looting would be bad.
Samut and Elish norn kills with one fewer zombie required than elish norn and dragon lord koligan. Without elish Samut kills with the same number of zombies as koligan.
I should probably go back up to 4 bridges. I had shaved one for space, but I think that may have been an error.
@walking.dude I think 4 bridges is a definite must. They're more important than the bauble mix for sure.
Also have to think about real games, esepecially games 2-3 you're probably going to lose some of those to graveyard hate, not having a fourth could be detrimental to winning. The missteps are also going to be a big problem. So is COTV on zero. It wrecks the bauble plan pretty bad.
Siding into a whole new strategy could be a cool idea. It's been done, you just have to have some luck game two because you give up some defense for sure. There were some minus six decks that sided right into a Tezzeret/ Tinker Deck and some Belcher decks that changed face a lot as well. I've always thought about siding dredge into a minus six because the Bazaars are already there, but the synergy is pretty bad.
Keep toying with it. It can never hurt, worst case scenario you just lose in some test play. Always worth seeing what's out there!
@POXEVERYTURN I'm very interested in seeing this list. Combustible Gearhulk is a pet card of mine.