Dredge going into Summer 2017
@POXEVERYTURN I'm very interested in seeing this list. Combustible Gearhulk is a pet card of mine.
@Hydra here is the list as I am running it now:
3x Petrified Field
2x undiscovered Paradise
2x Dakmor Salvage
1x Mana confluence
4x stink weed imp
4x Golgari Grave troll
4x Hollow one
2x Combustible Gearhulk
3x Prized Amalgam
2x Golgari Thug
4x Dread Return
4x cabal Therapy
Lots of usual stuff/ Please god don't side in 9x dredge hate.
So I'm still tinkering with the list for sure. I'm really liking the way it's playing and here's my logic for the gearhulk. 1) it's definitely not a card I've seen run in dredge lists so hey it's worth a shot and not expected, 2) I like the synergy especially if the game goes longer than I want. It makes the opponent make a hard choice; do I get to essentially dredge three more times this turn or are you going to take an undetermined amount to the face, which in a dredge list can be pretty high and possibly leathal against a lot of decks running ancient tomb, mana crypt, fetches, etc. I am never paying cost for cards so I don't care but there's a lot of decently high cost cards in the list. If I whiff worst case scenario is three more cards in the graveyard I can use. I overloaded on Dread Return because I want to have either a gearhulk or Griselbrand to target whenever I need to.
I like the Hollow ones because they come in for free off a Bazaar activation. Still out on whether I like the way it affects tempo or not but a lot of decks do not want to be staring down 4 power turn one just in general and it's another option early game if my graveyard is getting wrecked. Definitely want to try some more games with it but I'm enjoying it so far.
John Cox last edited by John Cox
Ķeep me posted on Hollow One
@POXEVERYTURN Do you have lands in your sideboard? I can't imagine playing anti-hate with only 3 rainbow lands.
@walking.dude "Red Dredge" is essentially what people used to play in Vintage a long time ago (it wasn't Red spells at the time because the primary discard outlets were Blue). People used to play Careful Study, Breakthrough, Cephalid Coliseum, and Putrid Imp. By the time Bloodghast was printed, some Dredge lists (a minority) still used those cards instead of Serum Powder. Evolution of Dredge over time led to Serum Powder being the dominant version of Dredge. I have doubts that going back to something similar to that old technology would bare much fruit.
@John-Cox will do. I am hoping to run this list or something similar in a tournament very soon so hopefully he can see some real play and how it holds up.
@DeaTh-ShiNoBi yes I am running a mana confluence, a barbarian ring and a rift stone portal in board. 4 ingot chewer, 1 chain of vapor, 3 fragmentize, 3 naturalize, and 1 Elesh Norn. I usually side in almost everything or a majority of it game 2 so the land gets a little more stable. The rift stone portal helps a lot, adds some good utility to the bazaar and petrified fields in a tight spot
ajfirecracker last edited by
Later this summer I am finishing my playset of Bazaars and planning on playing Dredge in cardboard (and likely MTGO). I found a store planning on running Vintage every other week (100% proxies allowed)
I wanted to get some thoughts here on where Dredge sits in the metagame. I will have the ability to play "traditional" Dredge or Pitch Dredge (with or without the Dark Depths transformational sideboard)
I think Pitch Dredge with Dark Depths is 60%ish against a meta heavy on Swords to Plowshares and Wasteland (you rely a lot more on Dredge post-board in that environment). Note that this is a pretty big step down from the 70%ish that you get against a Delver/Storm/Oath/Shops kind of meta that we had about 3 years ago.
In case you haven't heard this claim, the core insight of Pitch Dredge (IMO) is that Dredge as a strategy does not take up 70+ cards (the way Burning Wish Storm does) or 60+ cards (the way Gush and Shops do), but rather 40ish cards. The remaining space doesn't have to be counterspells or Marit Lage to be influenced by Pitch Dredge, it can be anything that utilises the extra deck-space efficiently.
The idea of Dredge having a "place" in the metagame in the same way that say, Oath is strong against Shops is a questionable idea. You are really trying to position yourself against hate cards, even with the transformational plans.
ajfirecracker last edited by ajfirecracker
Hi Shawn, sorry for late response, I was afk.
In case we cut Serum Powders we want to find way not to relying on Bazaar entirely. Relying entirely on Bazaar means we will mulligan to oblivion in 1 in 17 games on the play and 1/20 games on the draw. There is some serious math here calculated by @ajfirecracker on old TMD. In case we want to cut Serum Powders we should include something like Cephalid Coliseum, Careful Study and Breakthrough (former two are vulnerable to Missteps) to power out explosive finishes, but again people prefer uncountable Bazaar activation instead of playing spell which can potentially be countered. Vampiric Tutor and similar cards can be great tool in sideboard for Depths/ Lab Maniac/ Hermit Druid variants of deck, and I remember @vaughnbros included it in some of his wining lists. We should test this more seriously as I feel there is huge potential behind it, just players are not willing to go out of comfort zone with traditional lists.
Assuming 4 Serum Powder 4 Bazaar of Baghdad:
Without Library of Alexandria it's 1 in 17 on the play to not get a Bazaar on T1, 1 in 20 on the draw (higher because you have a scry and a draw)
With Library it's 1/20 and 1/24 respectively (assuming you are always willing to keep a 7-card hand with Library, and that counts as a "hit" in the same way as Bazaar)
The 1-in-17 number wasn't mine, but the scry/draw numbers and the Library numbers I calculated using the python program others had built (the underlying probabilities are exact, based on building out the probability tree rather than running simulations)
Ok, after some testing I have an update to the red dredge list (more air dredge now) and some experience for how it plays in live games
4 street wrath
4 urzas bauble
4 mishra bauble
4 Serum Powder
1 elesh norn
1 samut voice of dissent
3 dakmore salvage
1 Riftstone portal
1 City of brass
1 loadstone bauble
2 faithless looting
3 Mox (ruby pearl jet)
4 Auriok salvagers
After some testing the red looting cards turned out to be a liability so I went back to good old serum powders.
Game 1 lots of air and slowtrips:
Testing results were positive here. I think this build of dredge is at least half a turn faster, maybe two thirds of a turn faster than pitch dredge. So, if we ever need to speed dredge up, we know how to do it.
Game 2 and 3, the salvagers combo transform:
This was a bust. The salvagers plan is just too slow and too mana intensive. You board in some artifact mana, but salvagers wants you to have 6 mana at once, ideally. You don't get that before you die. Using therapy to clear out swords lets you go 4 and then 2, but its fragile.
Plus bomberman combo plays around priest and cage, but it still loses to trap, or crypt or leyline, etc. It didn't dodge enough hate to be worth it given how slow it is.
Overall, I think I learned something testing this build, but it's not the next big thing. I may try the air build with a depths combo package at some point in the future.
@walking.dude did you find Samut to be better or worse than the other haste options? I play Soulflayer in other formats so it's a card that's definitely been on my radar, so seeing you use it here is interesting.
I have elesh norn as my other target (good vs shops and vs mentor tokens).
If you animate Samut vs an empty board she is equal to koligan. If you animate both Samut and Norn, you get 4 extra damage instead of 2 because of her double strike. So you can kill with one fewer zombies. It's kinda a niche case, but I figure why not go for the extra value there, sometimes you get to reanimate both your targets in one turn.
If I had Iona instead of Norn as my second target, then I'd probably go with koligan.
Has anyone tried running Massacre Wurm over Elesh Norn? I run her as well in my board but I have been thinking putting Wurm in my board. He gets that same infest affect when the hits he board that Elesh does. Granted he doesn't boost your own creatures but he does have the opponent loses 2 life effect for every creature that hits the yard. It's not as beneficial if attacking but it could mean a mentor player is just dead as soon as he hits the board. Any thoughts?
@POXEVERYTURN I would think a big selling point to Norn that the Wurm doesn't have is being proactive. You can drop her to prevent an infestation of Monks from happening until they answer her, where as the Wurm needs to hit after, when it may already be too late.
@Hydra That makes sense. I was thinking of a come behind board state but your point on being proactive makes more sense. I am always trying to find something that gives dredge an extra few percentage points in the grand scheme.
@grumpytopdecker I think that is one of the really cool pets abut dredge. Once you have he core you can sort of go a little or wayvoff the beaten path trying new kings and new cards. Innovation is something that rewards the bold in my opinion in vintage, where two decks are running the show right now. I think, as you said, dredge offers more innovation than many give it credit for and it's fun to try new things and there's a lot of options out there.
vaughnbros last edited by vaughnbros
The deck is very flexible. A problem I got into early in when I first started to try and innovate dredge was this concept that many if the cards were "required", and my decks were called "2nd tier" by others due to cutting some of these core aspects. This type of elitism holds back the deck from reaching its full potential.
This started with a 0 dread return, 0 bloodghast build that leveraged 4 unmasks to control the opponent more than a standard dredge build at the time, and won me my 1st Mox tournament. I went deeper into the path and formulated numerous sideboard, and main deck confugurations for this approach.
Eventually, I switched axes from a Bridge from Below focus to a Dread Return focus. Largely due to the shifts in the metagame over the years.
Now I play 0 Bridge, 0 Ichorid deck lists that you've seen associated with me.
The reality is that the deck is even more flexible than that though. You could potentially work out a list that functions w/o a focus on Return or Bridge. Essentially playing "pre-boarded" with control cards in the slots of your former win comditions.
The "core" so to speak of the entire archetype as a whole probably looks more like:
4 Bazaar + Graveyard stuff than anything else.
In my articles, I typically have tried to focus on more tangible decks and cores that I know work to some degree.
Loff last edited by Loff
How should I board against Workshop decks?
I'm very new to Vintage and I picked up dredge on MTGO and still learning all the different match ups. Workshop seems to be the biggest problem for me. Still playing the Vintage daily swisses and I feel the other match ups I'm getting better to play against. Always the same against Workshop tho. They play a creature and a Sphere. This is the build I'm running atm. Maybe I should make a new thread about this instead.
Thanks in advance.
@Loff Always great to see someone new getting into dredge! I know the hateful match-up that it can be against shops especially on the draw. So a few things I would look into. The sideboard looks good but I would look into running fragmentize over wispmare. Wispmare only hitting enchantments can be a drawback not only against shops but against several other match-ups. The mental missteps are great in the deck, but they are really bad against shops, those are cards that would almost definitely come out in the second game because they are dead cards.
I would also look into running a barbarian ring instead of the second cabal pit, as well as a riftstone portal. Barbarian Ring gives you another red mana for the Ingot Chewer if you are light on rainbow lands, and it acts as a shock in the rare scenario that might be needed. Riftstone portal is an amazing tool into game 2-3 because it makes all of your lands a forest/plains allowing you to cast things like fragmentize, nature's claim etc. a lot easier than it would normally be. The easier it is for you to cast those spells early in the game and knock out those spheres the better chance you have.
The high side of playing against shops is you aren't going to run into some maindeck hate like containment priest and rest in peace which can often be coffin nails. Allowing yourself to have a more versatile land base and play those destruction spells will give you an edge.
Also, some of the cards in game two will continue to get around those sphere effects like boodghast, narco, etc because they are put into play abilities.
What are you siding in and out against shops? Are you swinging all of your destruction spells in, and what do you remove?
Hope this helped somehow!