Vintage Challenge - 6/10/2017



  • @HouseOfCards said in Vintage Challenge - 6/10/2017:

    @Khahan And if we lose the die roll our resistors can work against us. It goes both ways. You take thorn away and shops has no chance against any blue deck/combo at all.

    Honestly if this is your perception there is no point in talking. The idea that 7 sphere effects is not enough - I dont even know what to say to that. Add in 5 strip effects, 4 revokers and oh yeah, 4x permanent black lotus to power out XX and 2 drops that win the game in 2-3 turns anybody making a claim that 7 resistor effects isn't enough just doesn't come across as convincing. Outside of shops though add in white hatebears, white eldrazi - basically anything else that runs thalia/thorn/waste/revoker.

    You claim you can't be consistent enough but you do realize that if every sphere effect were restricted you would still have trinisphere, sphere of reistance, thorn of amethyst, lodestone golem for 4 sphere effects to make things cost more mana and 1 strip mine and 4 wastelands, 1 chalice of the void and 4 revokers to chip away at the mana base. That's almost 25% of your deck that screws with mana in other decks.

    Now for the record, I didn't make the initial claim, nor did I randomly offer up the info. I answered a question you asked. I'm not the making the argument that we should or shouldn't restrict thorn. I wasn't looking to get into a debate/argument about thorn - just passing along info.

    But if you want to try to make the claim that shops can't be consistent by losing 3 of 17 mana taxing effects I'm going to need a LOT more than just your word to accept that premise.



  • When Gitaxian Probe gets restricted in Vintage, it should be obvious that what is broken in the format goes much deeper than whatever's on the restricted list.



  • @ChubbyRain said in Vintage Challenge - 6/10/2017:

    Sigh, are we really going to have to do this every week Ryan and I put one of these out?

    @nedleeds - 69% of decklists on MTGGoldfish play 4 Brainstorm in Legacy. 64% of decks in Standard play 4 Attune the Aether. 62% of Vintage decks play 3.6 Mental Missteps. Force of Will actually sees more play that Mental Misstep @4.0 and 65% of the metagame. In any format, you are going to get cards that play pivotal roles in multiple archetypes as they simple do what they do better than alternatives in the format. Do you think that Force of Will should be restricted in Vintage? Do you think Brainstorm should be banned in Legacy? The question is, what effect does the card in question have on the two key metrics WotC cares about when evaluating format health: metagame diversity and interactivity? Try to construct an argument taking into account those factors rather than simply regurgitating statistics from a single event.

    Anyone else want to have a go?

    Sure. Brainstorm should absolutely be banned in Legacy, it 32/32'ed a GP and has come close several times. Given the refuse on the banned list (Mind Twist, Earthcraft, Goblin Recruiter ...) I don't think anyone is debating the merits of banning Brainstorm, the counter argument is some combination of 'pillar of the format', 'format defining', 'skill intensives', 'everyone would quit' and 'go play modern'. If Legacy was played at the Pro Tour it'd have been banned long ago. It'd be like Bazaar 32/32'ing Vintage Champs (worm can opened).

    As for Force of Will vs. Misstep this is my opinion but Force of Will requires more deck building constraints at design time and a more difficult card to use at runtime. It has a far steeper opportunity cost than Misstep. I've never felt like other decks playing Force of Will has constrained my deck building experience like Derpstep does. Force of Will shouldn't be restricted.

    So my overarching point was that Vintage is Missteps and Thorns which speaks to the diversity argument. Again, my opinion ... one Misstep would diversify (clap) the blue deck builder (copiers) suite of counterspells similar to what we had 3-4 years ago and play one for ones that deal with Thorn (Pierce, Snare, SS). Thus hopefully muting Thorns impact and leaving some design space to resolve sorcery speed one mana spells without wanting to throw your deck across the room (or Misstep that Misstep).

    Maybe every deck becomes +3 Flusterstorm ... even that is fine with me. Flusterstorm comes with its own host of deficiencies. At least I could cast a one mana creature again in Vintage again without Cavern of Souls.

    But I'm probably in the minority. I thought Misstep and Probe should have gotten restricted and Gush should have stayed and then let's see what shakes out. Mentor would be much more killable. Substituting cards with text vs. Thorns would help push back against the natural predator. Other decks could pop up in between.



  • @nedleeds said in Vintage Challenge - 6/10/2017:

    @ChubbyRain said in Vintage Challenge - 6/10/2017:

    Sigh, are we really going to have to do this every week Ryan and I put one of these out?

    @nedleeds - 69% of decklists on MTGGoldfish play 4 Brainstorm in Legacy. 64% of decks in Standard play 4 Attune the Aether. 62% of Vintage decks play 3.6 Mental Missteps. Force of Will actually sees more play that Mental Misstep @4.0 and 65% of the metagame. In any format, you are going to get cards that play pivotal roles in multiple archetypes as they simple do what they do better than alternatives in the format. Do you think that Force of Will should be restricted in Vintage? Do you think Brainstorm should be banned in Legacy? The question is, what effect does the card in question have on the two key metrics WotC cares about when evaluating format health: metagame diversity and interactivity? Try to construct an argument taking into account those factors rather than simply regurgitating statistics from a single event.

    Anyone else want to have a go?

    Sure. Brainstorm should absolutely be banned in Legacy, it 32/32'ed a GP and has come close several times. Given the refuse on the banned list (Mind Twist, Earthcraft, Goblin Recruiter ...) I don't think anyone is debating the merits of banning Brainstorm, the counter argument is some combination of 'pillar of the format', 'format defining', 'skill intensives', 'everyone would quit' and 'go play modern'. If Legacy was played at the Pro Tour it'd have been banned long ago. It'd be like Bazaar 32/32'ing Vintage Champs (worm can opened).

    As for Force of Will vs. Misstep this is my opinion but Force of Will requires more deck building constraints at design time and a more difficult card to use at runtime. It has a far steeper opportunity cost than Misstep. I've never felt like other decks playing Force of Will has constrained my deck building experience like Derpstep does. Force of Will shouldn't be restricted.

    So my overarching point was that Vintage is Missteps and Thorns which speaks to the diversity argument. Again, my opinion ... one Misstep would diversify (clap) the blue deck builder (copiers) suite of counterspells similar to what we had 3-4 years ago and play one for ones that deal with Thorn (Pierce, Snare, SS). Thus hopefully muting Thorns impact and leaving some design space to resolve sorcery speed one mana spells without wanting to throw your deck across the room (or Misstep that Misstep).

    Maybe every deck becomes +3 Flusterstorm ... even that is fine with me. Flusterstorm comes with its own host of deficiencies. At least I could cast a one mana creature again in Vintage again without Cavern of Souls.

    But I'm probably in the minority. I thought Misstep and Probe should have gotten restricted and Gush should have stayed and then let's see what shakes out. Mentor would be much more killable. Substituting cards with text vs. Thorns would help push back against the natural predator. Other decks could pop up in between.

    I hate Misstep too but before it becomes restricted, there needs to be a better way to manage the 1 CMC design defect discard (Thoughtseize/Duress) and the Voltaic Key problem.



  • @nedleeds We disagree a ton, but I cannot like "Brainstorm should absolutely be banned in Legacy" enough. I've been saying this since 2008.



  • @brianpk80 said in Vintage Challenge - 6/10/2017:

    I hate Misstep too but before it becomes restricted, there needs to be a better way to manage the 1 CMC design defect discard (Thoughtseize/Duress) and the Voltaic Key problem.

    Yeah getting Keyed is frustrating, obviously turn 1 Ancestral becomes more swingy without Misstep everywhere but I accept death by restricted cards. We've never lived with Flusterstorm and 1 Misstep. Maybe Flusterstorm is enough to balance targeted discard. Honestly Defense Grid is probably more terrifying for a control deck to see turn 1 than a Duress. I feel like Misstep is too good vs. Thoughtseize because the opportunity cost of no mana vs. mana is so lopsided. But no free Derpstep certain exacerbates being on the draw vs. fast combo. There are beaucoup answers on the play, on the draw it's Force, Trap and sideboard solutions like Leyline.


  • TMD Supporter

    Isn't Misstep pretty poor right now? It isn't good vs. Outcome or Shops, half of the field. And it's not like it's impressive against Eldrazi or Saheeli Oath either. It's only functions are to counter Ancestral, defend against REBs or Plows, or to speed bump Rituals.



  • @desolutionist Misstep has value against Paradox to the point of boarding my 3rd one in this weekend in Michigan, because Top, Mana Vault, Sol Ring, and if they play it, Key are extremely important. Paradox blows you out with Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, and Sol Ring to the point where it has better value than other cards in my deck most-often.


  • Administrators

    @ChubbyRain said in Vintage Challenge - 6/10/2017:

    Sigh, are we really going to have to do this every week Ryan and I put one of these out?

    Yup.

    People can't help themselves.

    B&R threads are toxic and I'm 100% sure they've done more harm to format than unrestricted Lodestone, Gush, Brainstorm, or Trinisphere ever did. I'm also pretty sure they're completely unstoppable.



  • If WotC wasn't so ban-happy people wouldn't be so ban-talk happy.


  • Administrators

    @The-Gremlin-Lord people have been whining about the same shit for at least 15 years. Probably longer, but I wasn't around back then to see it. Even when WotC didn't publicly mention Vintage for years at a time (let alone restrict anything), these types of threads were still the worst thing about the Vintage community.



  • @The-Gremlin-Lord If people weren't so ban-talk happy WoTC wouldn't be so ban-happy.

    It's not WoTC's fault people had dumb opinions about Gush and Probe



  • @wappla You don't even play anymore, so how can you say peoples thoughts were dumb? I'm 100% for those restrictions. I also believe Mentor AND Preordain should be gone. And I'm far from an idiot in this format.



  • @Brass-Man @wappla I'm speaking outside of Vintage scope as well. Every WotC-run format got a banning or restriction since Kaladesh, so every format is experiencing a target being painted on the back of any top dog. Aetherworks Mavel, Death's Shadow and Deathrite Shaman are being scrutized exactly like Monastery Mentor is. It's not just a Vintage problem right now.



  • Wizards is finally opening up to the fact that they have made mistakes and are using the br lists correctly (for some) hows that a bad thing?


  • Administrators

    I just don't think there's any correlation between what wizards does, policy-wise, and how much vintage players complain about the B&R list.



  • @The-Gremlin-Lord said in Vintage Challenge - 6/10/2017:

    If WotC wasn't so ban-happy people wouldn't be so ban-talk happy.

    If WotC R&D didn't print Phyrexian Mana this could have all been avoided.



  • @Brass-Man said in Vintage Challenge - 6/10/2017:

    @ChubbyRain said in Vintage Challenge - 6/10/2017:

    Sigh, are we really going to have to do this every week Ryan and I put one of these out?

    Yup.

    People can't help themselves.

    B&R threads are toxic and I'm 100% sure they've done more harm to format than unrestricted Lodestone, Gush, Brainstorm, or Trinisphere ever did. I'm also pretty sure they're completely unstoppable.

    Well. If 95% of the decks out of 32 had either 4 Thorn or 4 Thoughtseize, we'd probably talk about it. That seems like a dichotomous format and something worth talking about like adults. Hopefully people take it for what it is, just opinion with a little sprinkling of salt :)


  • Administrators

    @nedleeds I completely agree that would be worth talking about like adults. The first time I see a B&R thread online where people are talking like adults, I'll let you know :P


  • TMD Supporter

    @MSolymossy said in Vintage Challenge - 6/10/2017:

    @desolutionist Misstep has value against Paradox to the point of boarding my 3rd one in this weekend in Michigan, because Top, Mana Vault, Sol Ring, and if they play it, Key are extremely important. Paradox blows you out with Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, and Sol Ring to the point where it has better value than other cards in my deck most-often.

    If I start countering artifact mana, my Mox monkey will starve... I understand theirs ways to use Misstep against Outcome, but is that use strategically better than other options?


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