Vintage Challenge - 6/10/2017



  • @nedleeds We disagree a ton, but I cannot like "Brainstorm should absolutely be banned in Legacy" enough. I've been saying this since 2008.



  • @brianpk80 said in Vintage Challenge - 6/10/2017:

    I hate Misstep too but before it becomes restricted, there needs to be a better way to manage the 1 CMC design defect discard (Thoughtseize/Duress) and the Voltaic Key problem.

    Yeah getting Keyed is frustrating, obviously turn 1 Ancestral becomes more swingy without Misstep everywhere but I accept death by restricted cards. We've never lived with Flusterstorm and 1 Misstep. Maybe Flusterstorm is enough to balance targeted discard. Honestly Defense Grid is probably more terrifying for a control deck to see turn 1 than a Duress. I feel like Misstep is too good vs. Thoughtseize because the opportunity cost of no mana vs. mana is so lopsided. But no free Derpstep certain exacerbates being on the draw vs. fast combo. There are beaucoup answers on the play, on the draw it's Force, Trap and sideboard solutions like Leyline.


  • TMD Supporter

    Isn't Misstep pretty poor right now? It isn't good vs. Outcome or Shops, half of the field. And it's not like it's impressive against Eldrazi or Saheeli Oath either. It's only functions are to counter Ancestral, defend against REBs or Plows, or to speed bump Rituals.



  • @desolutionist Misstep has value against Paradox to the point of boarding my 3rd one in this weekend in Michigan, because Top, Mana Vault, Sol Ring, and if they play it, Key are extremely important. Paradox blows you out with Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, and Sol Ring to the point where it has better value than other cards in my deck most-often.


  • Administrators

    @ChubbyRain said in Vintage Challenge - 6/10/2017:

    Sigh, are we really going to have to do this every week Ryan and I put one of these out?

    Yup.

    People can't help themselves.

    B&R threads are toxic and I'm 100% sure they've done more harm to format than unrestricted Lodestone, Gush, Brainstorm, or Trinisphere ever did. I'm also pretty sure they're completely unstoppable.



  • If WotC wasn't so ban-happy people wouldn't be so ban-talk happy.


  • Administrators

    @The-Gremlin-Lord people have been whining about the same shit for at least 15 years. Probably longer, but I wasn't around back then to see it. Even when WotC didn't publicly mention Vintage for years at a time (let alone restrict anything), these types of threads were still the worst thing about the Vintage community.



  • @The-Gremlin-Lord If people weren't so ban-talk happy WoTC wouldn't be so ban-happy.

    It's not WoTC's fault people had dumb opinions about Gush and Probe



  • @wappla You don't even play anymore, so how can you say peoples thoughts were dumb? I'm 100% for those restrictions. I also believe Mentor AND Preordain should be gone. And I'm far from an idiot in this format.



  • @Brass-Man @wappla I'm speaking outside of Vintage scope as well. Every WotC-run format got a banning or restriction since Kaladesh, so every format is experiencing a target being painted on the back of any top dog. Aetherworks Mavel, Death's Shadow and Deathrite Shaman are being scrutized exactly like Monastery Mentor is. It's not just a Vintage problem right now.



  • Wizards is finally opening up to the fact that they have made mistakes and are using the br lists correctly (for some) hows that a bad thing?


  • Administrators

    I just don't think there's any correlation between what wizards does, policy-wise, and how much vintage players complain about the B&R list.



  • @The-Gremlin-Lord said in Vintage Challenge - 6/10/2017:

    If WotC wasn't so ban-happy people wouldn't be so ban-talk happy.

    If WotC R&D didn't print Phyrexian Mana this could have all been avoided.



  • @Brass-Man said in Vintage Challenge - 6/10/2017:

    @ChubbyRain said in Vintage Challenge - 6/10/2017:

    Sigh, are we really going to have to do this every week Ryan and I put one of these out?

    Yup.

    People can't help themselves.

    B&R threads are toxic and I'm 100% sure they've done more harm to format than unrestricted Lodestone, Gush, Brainstorm, or Trinisphere ever did. I'm also pretty sure they're completely unstoppable.

    Well. If 95% of the decks out of 32 had either 4 Thorn or 4 Thoughtseize, we'd probably talk about it. That seems like a dichotomous format and something worth talking about like adults. Hopefully people take it for what it is, just opinion with a little sprinkling of salt :)


  • Administrators

    @nedleeds I completely agree that would be worth talking about like adults. The first time I see a B&R thread online where people are talking like adults, I'll let you know :P


  • TMD Supporter

    @MSolymossy said in Vintage Challenge - 6/10/2017:

    @desolutionist Misstep has value against Paradox to the point of boarding my 3rd one in this weekend in Michigan, because Top, Mana Vault, Sol Ring, and if they play it, Key are extremely important. Paradox blows you out with Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, and Sol Ring to the point where it has better value than other cards in my deck most-often.

    If I start countering artifact mana, my Mox monkey will starve... I understand theirs ways to use Misstep against Outcome, but is that use strategically better than other options?


  • TMD Supporter

    @Brass-Man said in Vintage Challenge - 6/10/2017:

    I just don't think there's any correlation between what wizards does, policy-wise, and how much vintage players complain about the B&R list.

    Because of the DCI's inability to set parameters or public metrics for what merits a restriction, these discussions will propagate forever. Because we don't have written "restriction rules," on some level EVERY opinion on the B&R list is at least arguable. Hence the toxicity.

    Maybe someday we'll get some hard and fast rules for what constitutes a restriction:

    • no 1st turn kill rate above 7%
    • if Champs attendance drops below 400, changes will be made.
    • if 75% representation in two major tournament top 16 for a certain card, it's looked at.

    Anything at all.... otherwise these arguments will go on forever (as they have since the mid-90s), and unfortunately, anyone's perspective is somewhat valid, the majority just might not agree with it. And then it becomes a contest of who can shout the loudest and furthest.


  • Administrators

    @joshuabrooks I'm confused why you think that a clear set of criteria would mean these discussions stop. Why wouldn't people argue over that criteria? Why wouldn't people argue over whether the criteria should change, or which decks meet that criteria, or which tournaments count as valid data for collecting those criteria?

    Even when WotC does make a clear set of criteria (e.g. the reserved list) people still argue about it forever.

    Beyond that, I have never felt like WotC has been unclear about these things. They are a business and they want people to play in tournaments and buy packs. Every decision (design, B&R, policy, errata) is made on a case-by-case basis to optimize for those two things. There are no guidelines or rules that supersede that, and player feedback is one of the biggest resources they have for predicting how changes will affect those two things. Every announcement I've ever read and every WotC employee I have ever talked to has seemed pretty unified in this. I'm sometimes honestly pretty confused why people don't think this is clear.

    This is absolutely a community issue, not a WotC issue. This is just what people are compelled to talk about. I wish that wasn't the case, but I'm not sure I'm in the majority, and I'm not sure any non-drastic decisions can change it.


  • TMD Supporter

    @Brass-Man I made a post earlier that pretty much agrees with everything you just said. I agree, it's a business, and happy customers are all that matter at the end of the day.

    Does the DCI make their decisions based on player feedback? Based on tournament results? Based on high quality MTGO analytics? Or just a few pro's opinions? Nobody knows. That's my issue.

    I personally don't mind B&R debates, though the modern internet has surely made them more toxic. My concern is that certain Vintage players are wielding a lot more influence, and their influence is certainly linked to personal preference. I think very few of us could extricate ourselves from our personal view of what Magic should be for the "greater good of Vintage."

    That said, I play as much in a month as some people play in a day. Maybe their opinion should matter more, but I'd prefer an unbiased agency. Or one that at the minimum playtests and understands the format. Maybe the DCI does, but they communicate otherwise.



  • Some people think Vintage should be the least restrictive Magic format, and other people think it's a format where Mana Drain is supposed to be good.

    Brian Demars, four years ago,

    There is a secret code in Vintage that everybody knows, which is that Mana Drain always needs to end up being the best and always does end up being the best. The Vintage community desires for, roots for, and does everything in its power to ensure that Mana Drain is the best card and best deck in Magic.
    Whenever Mana Drain isn't the best deck, it is because something else is degenerate, broken, or too good. If Mana Drain decks can't find a way to beat the other for an extended period of time, then begins the talk of restricting the threat. The joke is, of course, that if anything is actually better than Mana Drain, it probably does deserve restriction because in actuality Mana Drain is and always has been too good!
    So the DCI restricts the Flashes, Trinispheres, Lion's Eye Diamonds, and Gushes of the world to make the world safe for Mana Drainers once again, and when Mana Drain decks are unbeatable, they blame the flavor of the week card draw—Brainstorm, Gifts, or Thirst for Knowledge—so that Mana Drain decks are not so good that they win every tournament but are good enough to win a lot of them.
    The biggest mistake in my estimation is that the world is always made safe for the pillars rather than anybody ever questioning the pillars themselves. Nothing can ever be better than the best Mana Drain decks, and the Mana Drain decks can never be too much better than everything else. And, by everything else, I of course do not actually mean everything else but only mean Mishra's Workshop decks, Bazaar of Baghdad decks, and Storm decks.
    If some meta creature deck is viable for a minute, "hey bonus," but in general if it isn't one of these pillars, it really doesn't matter whether it lives or dies in the long term.


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