[XLN] Sorcerous Spyglass



  • I also think it cannot be overstated how having great outs to Dredge game 1 is important in sanctioned tournaments like Eternal Weekend.



  • You are trading off opening hand explosiveness for a card that's pretty mediocre in mirrors where Shop players are copying each others 75s of ABR, WB, WL. Tangle Wire can impact the board and let you push through lethal in otherwise unwinnable board states, wire can allow you to draw into business where you'd otherwise be dead because you have no blue cards.

    It could be the kind of card that moves in and out on the play and draw. We tested some BUG lists vs. internet shops and I can tell you I had to force the card a few times on the draw. Hands like Verdant, DRS, Wasteland, Force, Leovold, Blue Card, Removal ... you don't have to force a Sphere (it's defensible) but I feel like you have to Force Spyglass.



  • @nedleeds said in [XLN] Sorcerous Spyglass:

    You are trading off opening hand explosiveness for a card that's pretty mediocre in mirrors where Shop players are copying each others 75s of ABR, WB, WL.

    I agree with this, and I think this is the best argument that one really should not overload on Spyglasses, at least in the mid-Atlantic metagame, even if they're great against the rest of the field. The Spyglasses are not totally dead in the mirror, but they're pretty bad. Last year at EW I played something like 5 shops mirrors. I don't think I'd be willing to maindeck more than 2 or 3 of these just for this reason.


  • TMD Supporter

    @nedleeds said in [XLN] Sorcerous Spyglass:

    You are trading off opening hand explosiveness for a card that's pretty mediocre in mirrors where Shop players are copying each others 75s of ABR, WB, WL.

    These abbreviations took me well over a minute to parse. I had to pull up a sample deck to figure out WL and I'm still not sure. Wasteland? But then you typed it out later in your post so I'm not entirely sure.



  • After some testing, I decided to try sorcerous spyglass in a little tornament. I ran a null rod shop deck with 3 spyglass. They were never really bad and most of the time i was quite happy to draw them (even in multiple). Several of them met their FOW which is sort of good news. A few ones were critical in the game result.
    I am not yet sold on them and will do more testing but i think i will run only 2 of them.



  • @fsecco said in [XLN] Sorcerous Spyglass:

    I also think it cannot be overstated how having great outs to Dredge game 1 is important in sanctioned tournaments like Eternal Weekend.

    Everyone seems to have the "OMG It's a sanctioned event, 60% of the field will be dredge!".

    I have played in championships in 2006, 2008 - 2010, 2012 - current, and I've played against Dredge maybe 5 times total in that period, and I've only played against TWO unintentionally unpowered decks.



  • @fsecco That' just typical him. Do what a lot of people tend to do and ignore haha



  • @albarkhane Null Rod Shops has been the list I've been poking at as well. Tempted to post for discussion in the main strategy board so if this is the wrong thread please feel free to move! The Aggro Shops primer was excellent, but Spyglass has me wondering...

    Could this (along with the restriction of Mentor) perhaps yield a way back in for Prison/Control shops? Back in the spring the general attitude towards Stax type decks is that mentor was too fast and the mirror too aggressive. Could spyglass mitigate in a targeted way in a fashion that thorn could not?

    Again surprised that with such a strong potential there isn't more brew talk around this right now. It's either naysaying or nothing! Are we waiting on a champs breakout? Or is the consensus really so meh? I guess a fella can dream about the return to a more pure control MUD. In any case could people just be squeamish?



  • I think it's people keeping a lid on their "tech".

    I think it is fair to mark every Shops player that plays Spyglass at Champs that naysayed (or kept quiet) in this thread as a person that really doesn't give a damn about moving Vintage forward.

    This isn't Slash Panther. This is -obvious-. Discussion should be flowing. Keeping quiet on it is just sad.



  • I have a feeling this card is going to be fine in the mirror for me....because I cut all the bad cards in the old shops list. Which is close to 25 cards.

    Good luck at eternal weekend boys. I'll be running this card 100%



  • @ribby

    Seriously dude, wait a week and find out. Why do things need to be discussed before the main event. How bad at magic are you that you need someone to tell you how to netdeck? Go create a deck and test for yourself. Vintage Worlds is the equilavent of the pro tour for all us "old hands."



  • Firstly @gkraigher props to calling your shot.

    Secondly this isn't some super secret tech. It is pretty akin to something like Smuggler's Copter in Standard where everyone knew it was good, no one pretended it was terrible or kept mum, everyone discussed it at length and it STILL spiked the first major event with 32 out of 32 possible copies in the top 8.

    Why can't we just have that in Vintage? This is amateur hour, it makes the community look pathetic. It's not Dragonstorm or something. It's obviously an absurdly good card. Nobody is asking for net decks. Just some real discussion, or at the very least for the rest of the Shops players to just have a damn spine and call their shot.

    Again, kudos.



  • @ribby

    I've changed over 25 cards from the standard net deck list. All because this card should be played as a 4 Of in the main. That's all I'm saying.

    I'm also playing 4 in my legacy main deck.



  • @gkraigher I've also been thinking about the secondary effects, like do I have to worry about Dredge as much coming out of my Preordain deck (which doesn't run Spyglass... just counting on the metagame pressure). Will the SB slots I save make up for the fact that I can't really reliably run both basic Island and Mountain anymore... etc


  • TMD Supporter

    I like this card. Even though it isn't taking over the format right now, just thought I'd mention, it took at least 6 months before Mental Misstep started seeing play at all. (4 Spell Pierce 0 Misstep winning champs that year) And it took several years before Gitaxian Probe started seeing regular play; you even used to be able to get away with saying Gitaxian Probe is a bad card. So one day this could be down right oppressive and restriction worthy.


  • TMD Supporter

    @desolutionist said in [XLN] Sorcerous Spyglass:

    I like this card. Even though it isn't taking over the format right now, just thought I'd mention, it took at least 6 months before Mental Misstep started seeing play at all. (4 Spell Pierce 0 Misstep winning champs that year) And it took several years before Gitaxian Probe started seeing regular play; you even used to be able to get away with saying Gitaxian Probe is a bad card. So one day this could be down right oppressive and restriction worthy.

    Ah, simpler times when I was on the bleeding edge of Vintage innovation. Also the tournament where I shipped Ryan Glackin my other brew.


  • TMD Supporter

    Man, I have liked spyglass in my testing. Part of that is playing it against BUG and naming deathrite/lands, but overall the card has seemed very good to me, both in shops and eldrazi? I think it probably depends on what you think the meta at champs is going to be, but I definitely think it is a maindeckable card for some metas.



  • I found Spyglass is good even when you don't have anything that juicy to name. Happened to me: starting hand Workshop, Mox, Spyglass, Revoker, Sphere, Ravager, Foundry.

    That hand could've easily been Foundry + Sphere, right? Put pressure on the table. I played Spyglass first though. Saw a hand with 1 Volc and 1 Black Lotus as mana. Named a random fetch (Tarn) and played Revoker on Lotus. He never got back in the game.

    These are the plays that make Spyglass great. It can hurt their mana or not, but it gives you the perfect sequencing order for your hand.



  • @fsecco maybe Shop players have been missing out on Probe.


  • TMD Supporter

    @nedleeds said in [XLN] Sorcerous Spyglass:

    @fsecco maybe Shop players have been missing out on Probe.

    I messed around with it for awhile, better than I expected, but not elite. It obviously worked much better when you could play x4 Cotv (made the blind zero or 1 call a lot easier, and sequencing) and back then shops decks hadn't committed to playing 8 spheres. A novelty, but too many things working against it (turning on MM, dissynergy with ancient tomb damage, spheres, or your own cotv at 1, etc).


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