Mono-Red Prison - A Feasible Archetype?



  • Since this is deck is playing 4 Null Rods, I think we shouldn't be playing any Chrome Moxes. As you said, Ruby and Lotus are fine replacements for the first two, but maybe the last 2 should be Lotus Petal and maybe a Crystal Vein or an off-color Mox. I just don't want to two-for-one myself in a deck like this; it lives and dies by its opening hands, and so I don't want to lose a card if I can help it.

    Another question: Is this a deck that wants to play any other sphere effects? In Legacy, I understand that it runs more Trinispheres, but since you can't do that in Vintage, maybe you want some normal Spheres of Resistance instead of other random cards.

    Finally: Is Sulfur Elemental supposed to be in the main and Ensnaring Bridge in the side? I would have naively thought it should be the other way around.



  • Elvish spirit guide plays through null rod.

    But I guess it's nearly identical to chrome Mox in the sense that it's a 1 for 1. But the accelearation doesn't stay on the board.

    Ideally wouldn't this deck just run moxen, lotus, sol ring and crypt?

    I dont think you need 4 Chandras. But I figured the deck plays so many redundant copies of cards because of chrome Mox.

    Maybe chrome Mox is the reason why the deck functions properly. The off color moxen don't produce red.

    Lotus and ruby are obvious inclusions unless you are trying to win an unpowered prize.



  • Out of curiosity, why does lightning bolt not make the cut?

    1 of stranglehold seems legit too.



  • OK, gonna respond to a bunch here. Played in the daily last night and went 2-2, got some additional testing with some cards I hadn't tried yet (Sphere, Flashfires).

    Out of curiosity, why does lightning bolt not make the cut?

    So we don't play any 1s on purpose - the reason is twofold. One, the deck is designed to just cast and play 3s and 4s. Two, it's originally a Legacy Chalice deck - while we're restricted to the single Chalice, we also make Mental Misstep a completely dead card.

    I dont think you need 4 Chandras. But I figured the deck plays so many redundant copies of cards because of chrome Mox.

    Blue decks with a bunch of singletons get away with it because there's so much selection and card draw. We are almost always stuck with what we draw in our first 10 cards. Every single piece needs to be as redundant as possible.

    Ideally wouldn't this deck just run moxen, lotus, sol ring and crypt?

    So it's not immediately clear from the decklist, but this deck often struggles to produce red mana without a moon effect. Additional artifacts (that will get turned off by Null Rod anyway) don't help us there.

    We also, absolutely, under no circumstances, can play Mana Crypt. It will kill us. Often times, we do nothing for turn after turn once the lock is in place.

    1 of stranglehold seems legit too.

    Agreed. Hadn't previously considered this.

    Finally: Is Sulfur Elemental supposed to be in the main and Ensnaring Bridge in the side? I would have naively thought it should be the other way around.

    Yes, because our only other maindeck answer to a good Mentor hand is a Fiery Confluence that somehow doesn't get countered.

    That being said, I did lose 2 games straight last night where Rich Shay just tinkered for the Colossus and I didn't have a bridge.

    Another question: Is this a deck that wants to play any other sphere effects? In Legacy, I understand that it runs more Trinispheres, but since you can't do that in Vintage, maybe you want some normal Spheres of Resistance instead of other random cards.

    I tried this last night with 3 Spheres of Resistance. It is no bueno. Making your 3s cost 4 and your 4s cost 5 hamstrings you SO MUCH. I had a game against Ravager Affinity where I had a sphere in my hand and 2 mana on the board, but couldn't cast it because it would lock me out of the only potential outs I had.

    Since this is deck is playing 4 Null Rods, I think we shouldn't be playing any Chrome Moxes. As you said, Ruby and Lotus are fine replacements for the first two, but maybe the last 2 should be Lotus Petal and maybe a Crystal Vein or an off-color Mox. I just don't want to two-for-one myself in a deck like this; it lives and dies by its opening hands, and so I don't want to lose a card if I can help it.

    Off-color Moxen don't work. This deck NEEDS to be able to produce 2R on turn one with the average hand. Lotus Petal is not terrible.

    I'm still very happy with the Ricochet Traps in their spot - it's been a good card.

    I also tried out Flashfires in the sideboard, but I don't think it is where I want to be. Yes, I can't turn off my opponents' mana completely, but if I'm going to play anything, it needs to be Boil.



  • @gkraigher
    What purpose does Lightning Bolt serve? What is it answering?
    There's limited space in the deck to make this like Stax, and the appeal is that it's mostly Legacy legal.

    I could see Viashino Heretic being included for some more artifact destruction, but in general Fiery Confluence achieves this very effectively.



  • Stranglehold does look very strong in this list, possibly in place of 1 Chandra? Also, would Chaos Warp be useful versus Tinker for you?



  • Yes, it's a feasible archetype. I've been playing this kind of strategy since 2009. You can check the old Morphling.de site for my decklist before (Kitz/Quinn Arreza). Yesterday, we had a local vintage tournament and I made it to the finals but lost to an Oath Storm deck. This is my list:

    12 Mountain
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    2 Gorilla Shaman
    3 Eidolon of the great Revel
    4 Magus of the Moon
    4 Manic Vandal
    3 Phyrexian Metamorph
    4 Ingot Chewer
    3 Thorn of Amethyst
    4 Null Rod
    3 Blood Moon
    4 Lightning Bolt
    2 Dead/Gone
    SB:
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    3 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Dismember
    2 Pyroclasm
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    2 By Force

    My match up were:
    R1 vs Paradoxical Mentor 2-0
    R2 vs MUD Prison 2-0
    R3 vs Eldrazi 1-2
    R4 vs Oath Storm (same player I lost to in the finals) 1-2
    R5 vs MUD Prison (He gave me the win and did some playtest) 2-1
    QF vs Eldrazi Taxes 2-1
    SF vs Ballista MUD 2-0
    F vs Oath Storm 1-2 - I've made a bad keep on the play on the 3rd match. I kept a hand of 2 Mountains, 2 Null Rods, 2 Magus of the Moon, 1 Phyrexian Metamorph. My thought were if I could get to my second turn I could play rods and delay him a bit. He combo out on his 1st turn. I should have mull into Leyline or Grafdiggers or maybe a hand that could cast a turn 1 Rods.


  • TMD Supporter

    Sin Prodder seems not to work as well when you need a land, so I assume you'd not play it until you had your 4+ lands in play.

    Which matchups would you want to board in your Sin Prodders? To me you'd bring them in where Ensnaring Bridge will be brought online and dealing direct damage is the line of play?



  • This deck archetype looks so cool. Makes me want to feas the crap outta a playset of Caverns.



  • @downtoonelife Congrats for your 2nd place finish Kitz! I guess Ching was TOO STRONG (and that goes for ALL of us lol). When it comes to TMWA decks, you have to believe this guy; he's playing the deck FOR YEARS and we had our share of battles with each other (me on RG Beatz). Looking forward on playing against you (I'm on Zoo now) and again congrats on your finish.


  • TMD Supporter

    mcguirecj piloted this list to 5th place in the latest MTGO Vintage Challenge:

    Mono-Red Prison

    mcguirecj

    4 Goblin Rabblemaster
    4 Hanweir Garrison
    4 Magus of the Moon
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Abrade
    4 Fiery Confluence
    4 Blood Moon
    4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Chalice of the Void
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Trinisphere
    2 Null Rod
    1 Strip Mine
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    11 Mountain
    SIDEBOARD
    2 Null Rod
    2 By Force
    1 Koth of the Hammer
    4 Leyline of the Void
    4 Mindbreak Trap
    2 Viashino Heretic

    The versatile Fiery Confluence can be devastating when it hits the board; Chandra, Torch of Defiance provides card draw while creeping towards its ultimate. Goblin Rabblemaster is already annoying with its potential to get out of hand. Doubling up its effect with Hanweir Garrison is a good call.



  • @ydl I like the viashino but I think he is not good enough as artifact hate nowadays.
    For 3 mana there are better solutions. Since thorn has been restricted I think rack and ruin is better in that slot. It's 2x1 and the fact that is instant is very good vs those tangle wires.
    What I don't like about viashino is that you are taping 3 and passing without doing anything. They could revoke it kill with ballista etc.
    You could even try the 1 cmc spell with replicate which I don't remember the name but in a monoR deck it's quite good.


  • TMD Supporter

    @zylvorak I tend to agree with you. I ran a red list which placed 7th out of 16 on the same day and ran Shattering Spree instead of Viashino Heretic for almost the same reasoning you stated. Twice I cast Shattering Spree with one copy and both times, only the spell or copy was countered, not both.

    I'm also considering Shattering Blow as an answer to Blightsteel Colossus.



  • I don’t run this type of deck but just as a thought has anyone tried running meltdown? Seems really strong against a storm list or shops.



  • Hey all! I just wanted to put my two cents in on my FAVORITE achetype- mono red Prison!
    First let me tell you guys that this is what i ran in a trial and what i had an amazing time running (BUDGET) at EW.

    here is my list that i got 100th place (6-4)
    a note about what i lost to:

    First loss was to dredge, I cant say he outplayed me more than i failed as a pilot.
    I had created a locked boardstate and decided to protect against single removal and run out every ensnaring bridge i top decked. and in the third and final game, my opponent reminded me of the sideboard card i had most feared, serenity....

    Second loss was to variance. I lost to eldrazy, one of my best matches. Opener in game three was turn one blood moon with no lands in hand. I figured that my odds to draw a land would be pretty good. I was wrong. A revoker on black lotus beat me down while I was top decking lock piece after lock piece, not able to cast them.

    Third loss was to possibly my worst matchup, Jeskai mentor/good stuff.
    i got killed by my own rabblemaster game one, and a jace ult the next game. was not pretty.

    My final loss of the day was to Patrick Brennan, cool guy, he was the guy who got crushed by reid last year on paradoxical.
    It turns out that game one, on the play, I have a fantastic shops matchup and it showed all day long. Game two, the power of mishras workshop showed as my opponent had the mana to cast a turn one lodestone golem AND a phyrexian metamorph. Game three was a fight, but he prevailed doing shops things that they do.

    Wins were against:
    eldrazi (2-0)
    Lands(2-0)
    Lands(2-1) - turn one 20/20 really good when i don't top deck a bridge lol
    Shops(2-0)
    Shops(2-0)
    White Eldrazi(2-0)

    3 Goblin Rabblemaster
    11 Mountain
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Blood Moon
    1 Trinisphere
    3 Ensnaring Bridge
    4 Null Rod
    1 Lotus Petal
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Magus of the Moon
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    3 Sin Prodder
    1 Hazoret the Fervent
    4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
    4 Fiery Confluence
    1 Chalice of the Void
    SIDEBOARD
    2 Cursed Totem
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Hazoret the Fervent
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    3 Sorcerous Spyglass
    3 Mirage Mirror

    In a format/color where if you dont have power to pump out equal threats, you have to make cover-most answers.
    This is where the red prison deck shines!
    If someone can make it powered efficiently, go for it. I honestly think this deck is fine unpowered because of the pieces in the deck that work with bridge, hazoret, and chandra. This is an explosive prison deck that tries to jam, problem after problem, until your opponent is dead, or at 6 life, then you fiery confluence them :)
    Main deck artifact hate makes this deck really strong against much of the decks out there.
    and the call to run ensnaring bridge was strong as i got paired against two lands players, even if i didnt have a moon, I would have time against merit lage.
    questions, comments, concerns?
    I think this is super strong in the current paper metas, if shops holds the majority and you still want to have outs to many other possible vintage strats.


  • TMD Supporter

    Congratulations on your 6-4.

    How good does Sin Prodder work? Is it a "win more" type of card and does it have any complications with ensnaring bridge? Also curious about Hazoret the fervent, I see you have three in the deck and board, do you find it a game winner if it hits the board?



  • @ydl I found that if the game goes according to plan, T1 lock piece, T2 threat, T3 another threat. Sin prodder gets there pretty good. Being that mono red has very few card advantage spells, it's also a way to get deeper into your deck, or throw damage at your opponent. Menace is also relevant.
    I found that in legacy, sin prodder is pretty meh unless you are winning though. In vintage, he is a problem lol.
    More hazoret go in vs decks with swords to plowshares, I also like boarding hazoret in against oath/blue decks because if she sticks, you don't have to cast any more spells. Just pitch until you have a dead opponent. :D



  • This post is deleted!


  • @ydl and as far as sin prodder and bridge, it's only a nonbo if they need to swing in with their creatures and the give you the land on top and then you draw a land, order than that, it's fine not to seeing with him. At some point they will have to choose between taking 4 from fiery confluence or letting you cast it and taking 6. Or dealing with Chandra, or hazoret


Log in to reply
 

WAF/WHF

Looks like your connection to The Mana Drain was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.