Why take down type 1?



  • The type 1 section was brilliant. Why take it down? I've been for a community managed Type 1 since the horrid Brainstorm restriction



  • @shawnthehero

    Everything we criticized Randy and company for re: calling for Shops restrictions so they can have their pet blue on blue format... applies doubly to the idea of unrestricted Brianstorm.



  • I strongly disagree, @ribby. I criticized Randy and co. for being departed from the spirit of vintage. Restricting cards does not align well with the purpose of vintage.

    1x Brainstorm decks makes as much sense as 1x Lodestone Golem decks.



  • @shawnthehero said:

    Restricting cards does not align well with the purpose of vintage.

    You would probably agree that this can't possibly be an unequivocal statement, otherwise 4 Black Lotus would be ok.

    Thus it comes down to building tension and interesting decisions both during deckbuilding and in-play so that the game doesn't get stale. From this perspective it is pretty easy to defend 4x Lodestone Golem and pretty difficult to defend 4x Brainstorm.

    To address your original question about a community owned Type 1 format; why go in that direction. Commander is better because it has institutional support (and thus support in the form of new printings) even though it started out at the kitchen table.

    I mean I get the desire to deviate if one of your favorite cards is nerfed but you're never going to get unilateral support because of disagreements like the one we have about Brianstorm, so what's the upside for the community as a whole of breaking from WotC?

    Now if they did something really stupid like change the rules and make it Highlander, then I'd totally agree with you.



  • @ribby said:

    @shawnthehero said:

    Restricting cards does not align well with the purpose of vintage.

    You would probably agree that this can't possibly be an unequivocal statement, otherwise 4 Black Lotus would be ok.

    Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, Balance, Mox Sapphire, etc. These cards are so far away from Brainstorm in terms of raw power that they're easily identified.

    Thus it comes down to building tension and interesting decisions both during deckbuilding and in-play so that the game doesn't get stale. From this perspective it is pretty easy to defend 4x Lodestone Golem and pretty difficult to defend 4x Brainstorm.

    I don't think the restricted list should be used to make deckbuilding decisions more interesting. Brainstorm is a fair magic card that WotC printed, thus it should be allowed to be used. It also made deckbuilding and gameplay more interesting to me (and others), which is exactly why I want to see it unrestricted. If it was stale, I wouldn't even care. Brainstorm is also a card that rewards skill as there are a lot of nuances that go with playing the card effectively.

    To address your original question about a community owned Type 1 format; why go in that direction. Commander is better because it has institutional support (and thus support in the form of new printings) even though it started out at the kitchen table.

    Because I want to play Magic's most pure format: Vintage. In the direction that the DCI is taking it, it's no longer the Vintage that I love. Without 4x Brainstorms, Vintage games are incredibly random and lack that certain level of finesse and precision, which made the format appealing to begin with.

    I mean I get the desire to deviate if one of your favorite cards is nerfed but you're never going to get unilateral support because of disagreements like the one we have about Brianstorm, so what's the upside for the community as a whole of breaking from WotC?

    There wasn't a single person that advocated the restriction of Brainstorm before its restriction. I don't think anyone agreed with their decision. Most people were just shocked. And many great Vintage players quit playing when this happened. Great Vintage players quit when Gifts Ungiven was restricted.

    It's hard to say for sure, but if the DCI wasn't so restrict-happy, the community might have retained a lot of players.


  • Administrators

    @shawnthehero the Type 1 forum was a (potentially ill-conceived or too subtle?) April Fool's joke. If members of the community want to organize a like-vintage-but-not-vintage tournament (like Old-School), I welcome them to announce the event here - however for the time being, TMD is not running any such events, nor officially sanctioning any alternate banned/restricted list



  • I'm just joining this site though I've competitively played and collected since 1993. Yes, I took about 20 years off after my collection was stolen, but my perspective remains.

    Couldn't agree more about Brainstorm. I feel exactly the same way about Strip Mine. Neither card is too "broken." Land destruction used to be far more dominant in Type 1, and while I realize it's "less fun" for your hapless opponent, that's what competitive Magic is all about. Quite similarly, I feel that it's up to my opponent and the MTG creators to figure out how to balance the "metagame" with my 4x Strip Mines
    and/or 4x Brainstorms without complete "card castration." Bring back 4x Chaos Orb is what I say. Those were good times. :)



  • I don't like overpowered cards. With 4 brainstorms, I'll have to choose to play them or against them, but I cannot ignore them mostly. Blue is already the best color, it does not need further tools. 4 Strip mines is even more brutal.

    I don't want a format filled with crazy turn 1 wins, blue players casting 1000 spells each turn and and muds denying casting spells even the strongest manabase.


  • TMD Supporter

    I wouldn't suggest breaking away from WotC and the DCI, but I'm all for a unification of the unsanctioned Vintage scene. If all proxy events used the same standards for the type and amount of proxies, used good judges, and tracked results in a similar way to the DCI that would be great. I imagine having a huge non official championship at the end of the year, and those with enough good finishes at the preceding events could earn a bye or two (or whatever). This would be in addition to, not instead of, DCI sanctioned Vintage.



  • I lost my favorite non-Vintage format to a non-DCI entity's whim. 5-Color was a great format, based on the deck construction rules of deck minimums of 250 cards and color minimums of 20 cards (one card = one color, Fire/Ice was the best blue card in red-focused decks and red card in blue-focused decks). Then one day the website's owner decided to up the count to 300 because he didn't like the Wisconsin metagame, which was entirely different from the Philadelphia one. This broke the format into two pieces, and both metagames died within a year.

    I won't play non-DCI formats again. Commander and Old School are both fractured like 5-Color's dying breath, with regional ban lists and unrealistic metagame expectations from non-DCI legislative bodies. If Vintage loses DCI oversight than they lose my playership.


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