Vintage Restricted List Discussion



  • @mourningpalace Do they? I haven't seen too many players choose EE over Stony Silence.



  • It's funny, I was getting screenshots of friends playing in tonight's daily. The Shops players in both had dumped their hands on turn 2. One player went turn 1 Inspector + Ravager X 2 into a Wurmcoil Engine on turn 2. The other lost to turn 1 Foundry Inspector into Turn 2 Foundry Inspector + Double Revoker + Ballista + Chalice on 1. I think people are really underestimating how powerful these new Shops lists are, because it gets to the point where "play more mana sources" doesn't really matter when your opponent literally has 10+ power on turn 2.

    FYI @Stormanimagus - Their hands are literally full of the cards you recommend. Chewer, Dack, Engineered Explosives, By Force...


  • TMD Supporter

    What @ChubbyRain is saying here is very real. Recently I've lost games against Shops where turn 2 Tinker Blightsteel was not nearly enough to avoid dying.


  • TMD Supporter

    @ChubbyRain said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    It's funny, I was getting screenshots of friends playing in tonight's daily. The Shops players in both had dumped their hands on turn 2. One player went turn 1 Inspector + Ravager X 2 into a Wurmcoil Engine on turn 2. The other lost to turn 1 Foundry Inspector into Turn 2 Foundry Inspector + Double Revoker + Ballista + Chalice on 1. I think people are really underestimating how powerful these new Shops lists are, because it gets to the point where "play more mana sources" doesn't really matter when your opponent literally has 10+ power on turn 2.

    FYI @Stormanimagus - Their hands are literally full of the cards you recommend. Chewer, Dack, Engineered Explosives, By Force...

    Is this more broken than turn 1 Mentor? Turn 1 tinker? Turn 1 Trinisphere? It turns out Vintage decks can do broken things. Measuring decks by their best openings isn't a productive way to discuss the format.

    And it sounds like cheap 1for1 removal would have helped tremendously in both of those instances.

    @John-Cox said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    If you restrict walking ballista and/or sphere of resistance you can still make card for card, Tiny Robots. Since the days of Tiny Robots better cards have been printed so I'm almost definitively in that camp that said restrictions will do next to nothing to Workshops.
    I have no idea what the best course of action is, but (IMO)that isn't it.

    I played Tiny Robots extensively and that deck died the day they restricted Lodestone Golem. I went from winning/top8ing smaller events to nothing. It turns out that if you don't threaten enough mana denial, blue decks can keep aggressive hands and kill you however the hell they want.



  • @Stormanimagus said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    @mourningpalace Do they? I haven't seen too many players choose EE over Stony Silence.

    In the paper meta where Joe Brennan plays EE is pretty well thought of as a universal answer to all. It deals with mentor tokens. It deals with sphere effects. Its very commonly played. By force is already getting established as a staple and as soon as fragmentize was released it was placed in decks everywhere. As is pithing needle.



  • @cutlex said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    Is this more broken than turn 1 Mentor? Turn 1 tinker? Turn 1 Trinisphere? It turns out Vintage decks can do broken things. Measuring decks by their best openings isn't a productive way to discuss the format.

    Two out of three of those are restricted and the third will likely be soon... I agree that judging decks by their most broken draws isn't necessarily productive without considering how frequently those draws happen. What I'm saying is that those draws happen much more frequently than most players expect.

    And it sounds like cheap 1for1 removal would have helped tremendously in both of those instances.

    Only if they won the die roll. They did not


  • TMD Supporter

    @ChubbyRain said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    It's funny, I was getting screenshots of friends playing in tonight's daily. The Shops players in both had dumped their hands on turn 2. One player went turn 1 Inspector + Ravager X 2 into a Wurmcoil Engine on turn 2. The other lost to turn 1 Foundry Inspector into Turn 2 Foundry Inspector + Double Revoker + Ballista + Chalice on 1. I think people are really underestimating how powerful these new Shops lists are, because it gets to the point where "play more mana sources" doesn't really matter when your opponent literally has 10+ power on turn 2.

    That's exactly what happened to me in the NYSE finals.

    I went 6-0 against Shops in that tournament until I faced it in the finals (against an opponent I had already beaten), and lost to my opponent literally dumping his hand on Turn 1 with a Sphere and 6 power on board in game 3.



  • Long time player, first time poster.

    I've been thinking a lot about Vintage this week with Champs on the horizon. After a long week of experimenting, and contemplating the state of Vintage, I came to some conclusions.

    You Need a Reliable Way to Disrupt Your Opponent on Turn 1

    I think it's safe to assume that Turn 2 is when a Vintage deck essentially wins the game if unopposed. Even Legacy allows for decks that win the game with consistency on turn 2. But you're not going to win every die roll, so before your opponent enters turn 2 first, you need something disruptive turn 1 on the draw.

    Shops is the Only Deck that Can Truly Rely on Thorn of Amethyst

    Shops is the only deck that can cast Thorn of Amethyst on turn one consistently. Yes a fully powered deck with Ancient Tombs has let's say 12 ways to Thorn on turn 1. The problem is that a Workshop deck will always do it better because they also get Workshop to add to the consistency. Trading Sphere of Resistance for Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is not equal. Yes you get a creature which can be harder for your opponent to prevent/remove, she's less reliable to cast on turn 1 vs casting a Sphere in Shops.

    Force of Will Pushes You Into Keeper and Away From Fish

    FOW, MM, and Flusterstorm are real ways to disrupt your opponent on the draw (without playing Shops). FOW is the real deckbuilding constrainer in that line-up (and Flusterstorm on your mana base). You need to play a bare minimum of 16 blue spells to justify FOW, but the more the better. That's not a bad thing per se.

    The problem is that you don't need a 20+ creature suite to win the game. There are plenty of 1 card combos or win conditions (Oath of Druids, Monastery Mentor, etc). And when you don't need to dedicate a bunch of slots to threats, you can play more cantrips and disruptive spells. Cursecatcher pushes you to play Merfolk, whereas PreOrdain invites you to play all the most powerful blue spells available.

    So if you want to change up the top blue decks, you restrict the cards that allow decks to only need 6-7 slots for things that actually win the game. But I don't think the lack of diversity in Blue is the true issue.

    Your Deck Can't Depend on Thoughtseize And Other One Mana Spells

    Other colors offer ways to be disruptive, and those other ways can be played Turn 1 on the draw because they cost one mana. The problem is that they cost one mana. Every blue deck plays a significant number of Mental Missteps because they need to keep other blue decks honest. This pushes out decks that might trade counterspells for discard.

    Even worse, it's hard to justify building a deck that leans on one mana threats. When blue vs blue have the same counterspell suite, which includes MM, Delver of Secrets or Goblin Welder (or even Death's Shadow) line-up terrible when compared to Mentor. A strategy trying to go under threats like Mentor/Oath are punished by MM. Also MM is a card any deck can play, so even something like Dredge could punish a 1-drop based deck.

    Conclusion: Restrict Mental Misstep

    Full disclosure, I never thought I would suggest restricting Mental Misstep. I actually love this card and have enjoyed playing with it for years.

    That said this restriction would allow for true innovation and metagame shake-up. To put it in perspective, I would be glad to see Mentor restricted. He's a very oppressive creature. But I don't want that to happen (not now at least), because it doesn't change the problems laid out above. If I can only play 1 Mentor, then I just adjust my 6-7 slots for win conditions. Maybe that means I'm a PO combo deck or Oath deck now, but the result is the same: you still can't really play Delver, Welder, or Thoughtseize.

    Making room for 1-drops again allows for different strategies, and helps out under represented colors. If anything I'm excited to take on the challenge of building successful decks in a 1 Misstep world. It would truly be a new frontier.



  • @doomfinite

    I think this is reasonable. Ideally I would like to see

    Restrict misstep.
    Restrict mentor.
    Restrict something from shops that isn't shop itself, maybe sphere.
    And, just cause I play both dredge and oath, restrict containment priest

    Maybe the last one is a little bit of a joke, but not 100%. I do think the metagame looks more diverse with some extra oath and dredge top 8s.



  • @smmenen @ChubbyRain
    This happened to me in the finals in the 7/22 challenge
    Beat shops once in the Swiss and also in the quarters and semis
    Lost in the finals to Jazza on insane t1/t2 hands.
    Pretty much locked out immediately
    #restrictworkshop but realistically #restrictsphere


  • TMD Supporter

    If Gifts is verified as the deck with the highest win percentage on MTGO, does it make sense to talk about restrictions on decks with lower win rates? If so, what would it accomplish?



  • @desolutionist Stupidity breeds its own restrictions, so no WotC restrictions are needed. At least when I tried playing Gifts in the practice room, I made so many misplays - and those were just the ones I recognized, likely a small percentage.


  • TMD Supporter

    @winterstar said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    @Smmenen

    I'm more inclined to say Mentor and Walking Ballista.

    I think that taking sphere removes too many lock pieces from Workshop and forces it even further down the hyper aggressive route.

    I think Walking Ballista is actually good for the format. It helps check tokens strategies, and is another way to answer Planeswalkers.

    In other words, I'm not convinced this requires swift and decisive action, and would rather see an approach more akin to a scalpel than a sledgehammer.

    Agreed, but think it through. The question is simple:

    How do you weaken Workshops without collateral effects on strategies like White and Tribal Eldrazi? When focused that way, Thorn, Ancient Tomb, and Ballista should be ruled out.



  • I believe that if you want to stop the workshop on mentor mess, you need to do three things, and I hope this is WOTC's address of the situation:

    "We misjudged the format when we restricted Lodestone Golem and Chalice of the Void. It's obvious to us that Mishra's Workshop is the real problem. Monastery Mentor decks have also been a problem, both from the Tempo and the Combo perspective. However, we learned from the Lodestone Golem fiasco that restricting the creature does not solve the problem. For this reason, we made our changes.

    Lodestone Golem is unrestricted in Vintage
    Chalice of the Void is unrestricted in Vintage
    Preordain is restricted in Vintage.
    Mishra's Workshop is restricted in Vintage.
    Paradoxical Outcome is restricted in Vintage.


  • TMD Supporter

    I mentioned it in another thread, but is restricting Arcbound Ravager a sufficient speed bump? Hurts the mega-aggro deck, while also possibly opening up room for stax or other shops decks.

    I'll confess I think it is a speedbump, but restricting sphere just seems like it might open shops up even more (if Mentor gets a bit slower).



  • @joshuabrooks

    it doesn't matter at all what workshop kills you with - none of their creatures are a problem anymore. Their spheres, and WOTC's constant printing of good artifacts at low casting costs, make it a problem.



  • My 2 cents. I think the format needs to be changed. I don't think restricting a sphere is the best course of action. I think if we ignore finances, the best course would be to restrict shops, unrestricted chalice, unrestrict gush, and restrict mentor. I play stax, and I think chalice will give us a more diverse shops representation. Now you can run aggro or stax. Shops restriction will hurt, but we can still turn 1 thorn with city or tomb.

    However we can't really ignore finances, and I think restricting shops will kill the format faster than shops predominance. Perhaps unrestricted gush, restrict mentor, unrestricted chalice OR loadstone, restrict sphere of resistance.


  • TMD Supporter

    @bazaarofbaghdad said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    @desolutionist Stupidity breeds its own restrictions, so no WotC restrictions are needed. At least when I tried playing Gifts in the practice room, I made so many misplays - and those were just the ones I recognized, likely a small percentage.

    But with 40% workshops, Baral and Ancient Grudge will allow you to top 8 with your eyes closed and hands tied behind your back. How is workshop dominance even remotely a B/R topic?



  • @naixin said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    My 2 cents. I think the format needs to be changed. I don't think restricting a sphere is the best course of action. I think if we ignore finances, the best course would be to restrict shops, unrestricted chalice, unrestrict gush, and restrict mentor. I play stax, and I think chalice will give us a more diverse shops representation.

    What is 'shops' when you don't have shop? So you'd restrict shop but keep Golem restricted. I don't think you've thought this through. You could unrestrict Golem clearly. Any deck playing blue mess would be so over the top advantaged against any deck at that point I can't imagine the incentives you'd need to create to induce anybody to not include Islands.

    Now you can run aggro or stax.

    Did you see the champs top 8? You can run control shops, aggro shops or anything in between. Nothing is stopping you.

    Are people that new or are memories so short? Less than a year ago W/x Eldrazi was largely considered a better Thorn deck than Shops. Ballista has altered that balance. A restricted Shop and unrestricted Chalice would just return that deck to prominence and the same 4 x Misstep, 2 x Fluster, 2 x Pyroblast adherents would flood the internet with their tears until we're all just playing skill intensive mirrors.



  • @nedleeds said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    @naixin said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    My 2 cents. I think the format needs to be changed. I don't think restricting a sphere is the best course of action. I think if we ignore finances, the best course would be to restrict shops, unrestricted chalice, unrestrict gush, and restrict mentor. I play stax, and I think chalice will give us a more diverse shops representation.

    What is 'shops' when you don't have shop? So you'd restrict shop but keep Golem restricted. I don't think you've thought this through. You could unrestrict Golem clearly. Any deck playing blue mess would be so over the top advantaged against any deck at that point I can't imagine the incentives you'd need to create to induce anybody to not include Islands.

    I haven't exactly hidden my thoughts that Shops should be restricted. But the whole point of restricting shops is that you either restrict that one card or continue to restrict artifacts printed in the future. If workshops were to be restricted I think a corresponding unrestriction of both Chalice and golem should happen.


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