Vintage Restricted List Discussion


  • TMD Supporter

    @winterstar said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    @Smmenen

    I'm more inclined to say Mentor and Walking Ballista.

    I think that taking sphere removes too many lock pieces from Workshop and forces it even further down the hyper aggressive route.

    I think Walking Ballista is actually good for the format. It helps check tokens strategies, and is another way to answer Planeswalkers.

    In other words, I'm not convinced this requires swift and decisive action, and would rather see an approach more akin to a scalpel than a sledgehammer.

    Agreed, but think it through. The question is simple:

    How do you weaken Workshops without collateral effects on strategies like White and Tribal Eldrazi? When focused that way, Thorn, Ancient Tomb, and Ballista should be ruled out.



  • I believe that if you want to stop the workshop on mentor mess, you need to do three things, and I hope this is WOTC's address of the situation:

    "We misjudged the format when we restricted Lodestone Golem and Chalice of the Void. It's obvious to us that Mishra's Workshop is the real problem. Monastery Mentor decks have also been a problem, both from the Tempo and the Combo perspective. However, we learned from the Lodestone Golem fiasco that restricting the creature does not solve the problem. For this reason, we made our changes.

    Lodestone Golem is unrestricted in Vintage
    Chalice of the Void is unrestricted in Vintage
    Preordain is restricted in Vintage.
    Mishra's Workshop is restricted in Vintage.
    Paradoxical Outcome is restricted in Vintage.


  • TMD Supporter

    I mentioned it in another thread, but is restricting Arcbound Ravager a sufficient speed bump? Hurts the mega-aggro deck, while also possibly opening up room for stax or other shops decks.

    I'll confess I think it is a speedbump, but restricting sphere just seems like it might open shops up even more (if Mentor gets a bit slower).



  • @joshuabrooks

    it doesn't matter at all what workshop kills you with - none of their creatures are a problem anymore. Their spheres, and WOTC's constant printing of good artifacts at low casting costs, make it a problem.



  • My 2 cents. I think the format needs to be changed. I don't think restricting a sphere is the best course of action. I think if we ignore finances, the best course would be to restrict shops, unrestricted chalice, unrestrict gush, and restrict mentor. I play stax, and I think chalice will give us a more diverse shops representation. Now you can run aggro or stax. Shops restriction will hurt, but we can still turn 1 thorn with city or tomb.

    However we can't really ignore finances, and I think restricting shops will kill the format faster than shops predominance. Perhaps unrestricted gush, restrict mentor, unrestricted chalice OR loadstone, restrict sphere of resistance.


  • TMD Supporter

    @bazaarofbaghdad said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    @desolutionist Stupidity breeds its own restrictions, so no WotC restrictions are needed. At least when I tried playing Gifts in the practice room, I made so many misplays - and those were just the ones I recognized, likely a small percentage.

    But with 40% workshops, Baral and Ancient Grudge will allow you to top 8 with your eyes closed and hands tied behind your back. How is workshop dominance even remotely a B/R topic?



  • @naixin said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    My 2 cents. I think the format needs to be changed. I don't think restricting a sphere is the best course of action. I think if we ignore finances, the best course would be to restrict shops, unrestricted chalice, unrestrict gush, and restrict mentor. I play stax, and I think chalice will give us a more diverse shops representation.

    What is 'shops' when you don't have shop? So you'd restrict shop but keep Golem restricted. I don't think you've thought this through. You could unrestrict Golem clearly. Any deck playing blue mess would be so over the top advantaged against any deck at that point I can't imagine the incentives you'd need to create to induce anybody to not include Islands.

    Now you can run aggro or stax.

    Did you see the champs top 8? You can run control shops, aggro shops or anything in between. Nothing is stopping you.

    Are people that new or are memories so short? Less than a year ago W/x Eldrazi was largely considered a better Thorn deck than Shops. Ballista has altered that balance. A restricted Shop and unrestricted Chalice would just return that deck to prominence and the same 4 x Misstep, 2 x Fluster, 2 x Pyroblast adherents would flood the internet with their tears until we're all just playing skill intensive mirrors.



  • @nedleeds said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    @naixin said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    My 2 cents. I think the format needs to be changed. I don't think restricting a sphere is the best course of action. I think if we ignore finances, the best course would be to restrict shops, unrestricted chalice, unrestrict gush, and restrict mentor. I play stax, and I think chalice will give us a more diverse shops representation.

    What is 'shops' when you don't have shop? So you'd restrict shop but keep Golem restricted. I don't think you've thought this through. You could unrestrict Golem clearly. Any deck playing blue mess would be so over the top advantaged against any deck at that point I can't imagine the incentives you'd need to create to induce anybody to not include Islands.

    I haven't exactly hidden my thoughts that Shops should be restricted. But the whole point of restricting shops is that you either restrict that one card or continue to restrict artifacts printed in the future. If workshops were to be restricted I think a corresponding unrestriction of both Chalice and golem should happen.



  • @khahan My own bias as a hatebear pilot would LOVE this. My logical self hates this though. I don't think you should really EVER restrict Mishra's Workshop any more than you should restrict Force of Will or Dual Lands, or Bazaar of Baghdad or Cavern of Souls. Mishra's Workshop is a fundamental "glue" card of the format and allows for an entire archetype to exist and thrive. I'm sorry, but the competition is capable of much more broken things in Vintage than in Legacy and you're basically proposing to make the "Workshop" MUD archetype relegated to the power level of Legacy MUD, but with the same Vintage competitors that we currently have. That just won't work. Try it sometime. Try 100 games with your restricted Workshop MUD garbage and tell me how often you beat: Mentor, PO, Oath, Eldrazi, Dredge, etc etc etc. It isn't a deck in Vintage without Mishra's Workshop no matter how you slice it. City of Traitors in Vintage is a garbage land that just makes your deck incredibly weak to Wasteland: "Oops you were forced to sac your one-shot land to get more mana? I'll just waste your new land and leave you with nothing!" Please don't try to run the narrative that MUD would even remotely be a thing without 4 Workshops to hold it together.



  • Even though restricting over and over ad nauseam seems stupid, I think we have reached a point where you just cannot restrict or unrestrict reserved list cards at will. It would break consumer trust and create stupid price jumps. In another thread people shared their opinion on unrestricting Library of Alexandria and while I'm not in the mood to discuss game theory right now, I think it is a pretty bad idea as the card would rise exponentially, creating an even further barrier.
    Workshop is like the opposite spectrum of that. The price would decline, even though not by that much I suppose, but there is a real chance that it would weaken an essential pillar to many players. Again, I can't really argue about its effects on the format, but diminishing the reliance of an already less consistent deck (compared to blue - shop is redundant in what its cards do but games with 1 compared to 3 spheres just play out so differently and there are no cantrips to ensure that) just doesn't sound good. I may be totally wrong on this, maybe Workshop can just be replaced with City of Traitors (and Eldrazi Temple).

    I'm in favor of Wotc giving us a good answer card first, like the ones with Channel or Cycling that were already suggested. Should the archetype still be too dominant after this, we can still talk.



  • @khahan said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    @nedleeds said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    @naixin said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    My 2 cents. I think the format needs to be changed. I don't think restricting a sphere is the best course of action. I think if we ignore finances, the best course would be to restrict shops, unrestricted chalice, unrestrict gush, and restrict mentor. I play stax, and I think chalice will give us a more diverse shops representation.

    What is 'shops' when you don't have shop? So you'd restrict shop but keep Golem restricted. I don't think you've thought this through. You could unrestrict Golem clearly. Any deck playing blue mess would be so over the top advantaged against any deck at that point I can't imagine the incentives you'd need to create to induce anybody to not include Islands.

    I haven't exactly hidden my thoughts that Shops should be restricted. But the whole point of restricting shops is that you either restrict that one card or continue to restrict artifacts printed in the future. If workshops were to be restricted I think a corresponding unrestriction of both Chalice and golem should happen.

    Sure, but I was questioning the naming convention. If you restrict Shop there is no Shops deck. Nobody is just putting 3 City of Traitors, Caverns or Darksteel Citadels in the deck. It's going to be unplayable in the face of something like the White Eldrazi decks from before Aether Revolt. White Eldrazi has a lower ceiling but a more diverse set of lock pieces and threats. Shop decks are historically filled with unplayable crap that is only playable because Shop is unrestricted. It's already hamstrung by having next to no library manipulation.



  • The naming convention for Workshop decks, whether it's restricted or not, is whatever Raffaele Forino says it is. He is both so terrifying when he's angry and yet so passionate and genuine when he's not. That, combined with creating the framework for nearly every successful Lodestone-era Workshop decklist, means his word goes. If Mishra's Workshop gets restricted, and he tells you to still call it a Workshop deck, you still call it a Workshop deck.



  • @hierarchnoble said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    The naming convention for Workshop decks, whether it's restricted or not, is whatever Raffaele Forino says it is. He is both so terrifying when he's angry and yet so passionate and genuine when he's not. That, combined with creating the framework for nearly every successful Lodestone-era Workshop decklist, means his word goes. If Mishra's Workshop gets restricted, and he tells you to still call it a Workshop deck, you still call it a Workshop deck.

    Pretty sure he's just quitting if he's that passionate about shop and it gets shitcanned.



  • @nedleeds said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    Pretty sure he's just quitting if he's that passionate about shop and it gets shitcanned.

    Now now, don't be petty.



  • Re: restricting workshop.

    I think a move that would polarize the playerbase that extensively would ideally occur only after a great deal of playtesting and analysis of what the format might look like after the fact.

    And bluntly, we all know that such format playtesting and analysis is completely unlikely. Restricting Workshop is precisely the sort of thing that would likely harm the vintage community more than it helps it. I doubt there are hordes of players just waiting to play Vintage if only there wasn't that pesky Workshop deck (and if there are, the Eldrazi decks will say hello). I get that some players hate playing against any deck that does not conform to their vision of what magic is, but "I don't like that style of game so it needs restricting" isn't healthy, either..

    As b/r discussion spreads to virtually every thread, it is very obvious that many players have strong opinions about the deck that workshops enables. It's precisely this reason that the b/r list should probably never be run by committee and one vaguely hopes that the DCI isn't just listening to loud voices on the internet.

    Does the Workshop deck need to be weakened? Probably. It gained a lot in the last year, some of which has taken the last few months to crystallize into the hyper-aggressive monster that it has become.

    But to hit Workshop...that is the sort of thing that shatters confidence in the format, the new direction of b/r policy as being carried out by the DCI, and would cause a lot of bad blood in the community. I'm just not seeing a big enough reward to warrant such a move- especially given that "keep restricting things" is not what most of us think is a great place for the format to be headed.



  • @winterstar said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    I get that some players hate playing against any deck that does not conform to their vision of what magic is, but "I don't like that style of game so it needs restricting" isn't healthy, either..

    I understand this and agree with this general sentiment (which is why when the issue comes up I dont mind stating my position to restrict workshops but I'm not out crusading for it to happen. To be honest, if it doesn't get restricted it wont change my feelings towards vintage at all). However, that is exactly what we saw with gush over the past few months and mentor. A small handful of players crusading and complaining that the games were unfun and boring. Its proven to be an effective method.



  • 2cents about the Library of Alexandria unrestriction thing, I would be afraid that Shops could use them, along with Coercive Portal. I wouldn't hammer in on Workshop, since there are just 3 Shop Cards restricted (Chalice, Golem, and Trini). This is nothing against all the TX Engine Parts that are restricted. Sphere of Resistance is a Shop only card, and really abuses the Symetry between Shop mana and Sphereeffects. There are not that many Sphere effects left that are restrict worthy, so I'd try them at first.

    And about Mentor, he is on a Power Level with Tinker, imo.



  • @typeonestorm Library of alexandria is the antithesis of what a workshop prison deck wants to do, you want to leverage the tempo produced by your superior mana production to lock the opponent out (ie dumping your hand in the first turns of the game). Library wants you to slow down your development and play an attrition game trading 1 for 1 with your opponent's threats while you are outdrawing them a little more every turn.
    The current problem with workshops aren't the lock pieces, it's that the deck is so fast at killing you that it only needs 1/2 speedbumps before it kills you. Restricting lock pieces is not the way to go imo. We need workshop decks to slow down and a little more prison control oriented than tempo oriented. Foundry inspector and Walking ballista would be the real culprits from this viewpoint. If workshops weren't so low to the ground and mentor was restricted, shops would be weak to creatures again and decks like BUG fish, oath of druids and such would be better able to prey on them.



  • @typeonestorm yeah. Shops... at least as we know it now, just wants to dump it's hand onto the table as fast as possible. I can't imagine a deck with taxing effects, aggro creatures, and no counterspells, ever staying on the 7 cards needed to make use of Library, at the same time that they actually stay in a vintage game...

    However... I do find it ironic that Kevin suggested this. He might not have thought it through, since, I have it on pretty good authority that Dredge is his least favorite deck... and the implications for Dredge might be pretty incredible.



  • @guest said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    I believe that if you want to stop the workshop on mentor mess, you need to do three things, and I hope this is WOTC's address of the situation:

    "We misjudged the format when we restricted Lodestone Golem and Chalice of the Void. It's obvious to us that Mishra's Workshop is the real problem. Monastery Mentor decks have also been a problem, both from the Tempo and the Combo perspective. However, we learned from the Lodestone Golem fiasco that restricting the creature does not solve the problem. For this reason, we made our changes.

    Lodestone Golem is unrestricted in Vintage
    Chalice of the Void is unrestricted in Vintage
    Preordain is restricted in Vintage.
    Mishra's Workshop is restricted in Vintage.
    Paradoxical Outcome is restricted in Vintage.

    Mentor seems more pertinent than Preordain in this list but I suspect the rest of these suggestions are highly defensible. I don't think Paradoxical can be restricted at the same time as the rest of those just because we don't know if it would be a problem with the other changes in place.


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