Vintage Restricted List Discussion



  • @Serracollector said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    You could pop Mox Diamond like a lotus petal when it first came out, and Im 99% sure Lotus Vayle and Scorched Ruins were the same way. You could tap them as a mana effect, which was faster than any effect at the time, and then sac them and not sac the other lands, which would essentially add a Lotus and 4 colorless lotus to the card pool. I never did this with these cards, but I have done it in the past with Lake of the Dead and Kjeldoran Outpost.

    While you are correct that you could do this with KJ Outpost, you are incorrect that it was ever possible to do this with Diamond, Vale, or Ruins. These cards came out under different rules sets (4th Edition for Outpost, 5th Edition for the other 3), and so they worked differently at the time. I'm going to quote myself from Reddit to explain this further:

    Alliances came out when 4th edition rules were in effect, which included something called a "damage prevention/redirection subphase" that would occur every time something was about to take damage or go to the graveyard. The types of spells and abilities legal during this subphase were limited to thing like Regeneration abilities, damage prevention abilities ala Healing Salve, and damage redirection abilities like with Simulacrum. Many of these cards work differently now, so you’d probably have to look at a 4th edition version of each one in Gatherer rather than referring to their current Oracle text to understand.

    Furthermore, though, interrupts or abilities that could be played as an interrupt (such as tapping any of the Alliances lands for mana) were also legal during this subphase. After all, a player would need access to mana to power Regeneration (tapping lands for mana was played as an interrupt), and Healing Salve could still be countered by Counterspell, which was an interrupt at the time. So, there was a bit of a loophole, here.

    Up until 5th edition rules went into effect (with the release of Mirage), it was possible to play a Lake of the Dead, announce that you will be sacrificing the Lake for the Dead for its "comes into play ability," enter the resulting damage prevention/redirection subphase, and then use Lake of the Dead's “add BBBB” ability (an ability playable as an interrupt) before sacrificing the Lake itself.

    The upshot of all of this is that, for example, you could have BBBB available on turn 2 if you played a Swamp on turn 1, the Lake on turn 2, and were willing to lose both of your lands. Alternatively, you could have 1R or 1U available on the first turn by playing either Balduvian Trading Post or Soldevi Excavations as long as you were willing to be a land behind for the rest of the game.

    This was specifically disallowed with 5th edition rules. 5th edition rules included a rule that required players to deal with a permanent's "comes into play ability" before any of that permanent's abilities could be legally played, no matter whether that ability was played as an interrupt, "mana source," or otherwise, So, once 5th edition rules went into effect, it was no longer possible to use the “Lake trick.” This is the rule that prevented Lotus Vale and Scorched Ruins and the like from being broken as all hell at the time Weatherlight came out. Once in a while, I run into a player that says “oh, I remember back when you could get 3 mana on the first turn from Lotus Vale.” Those players are wrong; presumably, they are either mis-remembering or just didn’t understand the rules very well at the time.

    6th edition rules, which came out some while after any of the above-mentioned cards first saw print, simplified things by getting rid of the above-mentioned rule and just slapping Lake, Trading Post, Lotus Vale, etc., with the errata similar to what they still have today.

    TL;DR: It was never possible to use Lotus Vale for mana before dealing with its “comes into play” ability. It was, however, briefly possible to use Lake of the Dead (and the rest of the Alliances cycle) for mana before dealing with their “comes into play ability.”



  • Ah. My apologies. As I said I had done it with Lake and Post in Tournaments, I simply did not know about the others. I thought for sure you could pop Mox Diamond like a Lotus Petal. My mistake. Carry on.



  • It is hard to define what I want vintage to be. I have fun playing the current meta, and did so before the last wave of restrictions. I had fun playing ten years ago when I still had paper vintage, playing belcher in a field of 4x trinisphere (well, maybe not toooo much fun). I expect vintage to be the most broken spells ever being cast. Sometimes the games are grindy, some times you die on turn one. I play to cast ancestral recall, black lotus, etc, or to dredge my deck on turn two and kill with a hoard of zombies.
    I do like to see some diversity in the meta though, and a couple cards seems to hinder that a bit right now. For me, mentor and paradoxical outcome are too much. Shops will remain prevelant unless workshops itself is restricted, and I would not want to see the deck killed (or nuke peoples valuable cards). But given the age and price of the cards, and the resistance that causes to change decks much, I don't expect too much diversity, and don't let it hinder my ability to have fun playing the game.
    My preference would be to see Mentor and outcome restricted. I don't mind a larger restricted list, as that is something I expect in vintage. Broken things being restricted. I don't see much on the list that could come off. Maybe ponder or jar.



  • There should be no restricted list. Only the ante cards should be banned. This is vintage. Let's play with all the cards in max quantities. If everything is unrestricted, I'd love for someone to show me what THE best deck would look like. I think you'd have plenty of diversity. FoW is still a thing.



  • It would be coinflip decks even with 4 FoW, MBT, and Derpstep. There are way too many ways to win turn 1 with access to all cards as 4 ofs.



  • There are many ways to win turn 1 now...but they can all be stopped. I would love to see any 75 that would consistently win turn 1 through FoW and misstep consistently. The ONLY thing i could think of is 4 lotus tendrils, playing lotus and triple thoughtseize followed by broken....but that is already 4 cards out of a hand of 7, and leyline of sanctity is a thing. I put out the challenge for anyone to show me a 75 of all non-ante cards allowed as a 4-of that will win turn 1 no matter what the opponent does.



  • 4 mox sapphire
    4 mox jet
    4 Black Lotus
    4 mana crypt
    4 lotus petal
    4 mox opal
    4 twister
    4 dt
    4 tendrils
    4 Po
    4 wheel of fortune
    4 Belcher/Aetherflux Reservoir
    4 Acall
    4 tinker
    4 gitaxian probe/leyline of anticipation

    And Psychosis Crawler could get around Leyline as a win condition, its just obv that those 2 are the fastest/best.

    Way more bombs and draw than 12 counters could stop.

    Edit: If ante cards were allowed I would fit in 4 Dark Rituals and 4 Contract from below and not fear Derpstep at all.



  • So taking things in a different direction, I'm going to ramble about the current metagame and possible restrictions because I'm sleep deprived and avoiding reality.

    I think if anything were to be hit out of Shops, Walking Ballista seems the best bet. Thorn rips too hard into Eldrazi and might weaken Workshops too much. Ravager would gut aggro version of shops decks.

    But Ballista...losing three of them would weaken the deck without destroying it.



  • IMO if MUD were to lose anything that would hurt it but not kill it, I would choose Revoker or Ancient Tomb.



  • If they would restrict Ancient Tomb before Mishra's Workshop, they'd be flat out saying "we care more about your financial investment than the actual health of the format", which would be disastrous.

    Walking Ballista is not even the best CREATURE In the Workshop Deck, let alone the best CARD.

    To me, Workshops now are fine. If you really NEED to take care of something, it's either Thorn of Amethyst or bust, and it would be the absolute wrong call to restrict Thorn*

    *unless you unrestrict Chalice of the Void at the same time.

    This conversation is useless, though.



  • There are some that argue that White Eldrazi is a better Thorn deck, that's certainly debatable; the argument has waned a bit with Ballista. But to the point of a 'Thorn Deck' restriction, if you restrict workshop the internet just shuffles into that deck. Or as others have mentioned just gives up as $2,400.00 in cardboard gets vaporized.


  • TMD Supporter

    I'm not convinced Shops needs a neutering (it always seems to get better when shops players are forced to adapt), but since this is the thread for pontificating and throwing things against the wall, and many people seem to have their hearts set on Thorn, what about:

    Unrestrict Golem
    I'm sure everyone will chime in on how 1st Turn Golem with a Strip Mine happens 95% of the time, but it really doesn't. Thorn/Sphere into Golem is more of the issue.

    Unrestrict Chalice
    I think this card never should have been restricted. It kept Mentor/Pyro in check (forcing them to diversify their CCs), it's a dead card mid/late game, and the Chalice for zero, while potent now, was a 50/50 then. Many shops players weren't even playing them. Not to mention, Chalice worked in many other decks besides Shops.

    Unrestrict Probe
    I hate this card from a flavor perspective, but I think Chalice would keep it in check.

    Restrict Thorn
    I don't want to see it go, but if the exercise is assuming Thorn or Workshop, I'd much rather see Thorn go. Or else Shops will become a deck that is almost all modern frames, printed post-2009, and might as well be playing Legacy or modern.

    Let's face it. Vintage is a flawed and unbalanced format (MTGO has proven this with a much more rapid metagame than paper), but we love it for what it is and what it was. Some cards are iconic and need to be untouchable preserved and viable as long as possible (Bazaar, Tolarian, FoW, Workshop, Wasteland, Fetchlands, Ancestral, etc).



  • @joshuabrooks I agree with some things being untouchable but tolarian and ancestral are restricted. They were already touched.



  • @joshuabrooks said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

    I'm not convinced Shops needs a neutering (it always seems to get better when shops players are forced to adapt), but since this is the thread for pontificating and throwing things against the wall, and many people seem to have their hearts set on Thorn, what about:

    Unrestrict Golem
    I'm sure everyone will chime in on how 1st Turn Golem with a Strip Mine happens 95% of the time, but it really doesn't. Thorn/Sphere into Golem is more of the issue.

    Unrestrict Chalice
    I think this card never should have been restricted. It kept Mentor/Pyro in check (forcing them to diversify their CCs), it's a dead card mid/late game, and the Chalice for zero, while potent now, was a 50/50 then. Many shops players weren't even playing them. Not to mention, Chalice worked in many other decks besides Shops.

    Unrestrict Probe
    I hate this card from a flavor perspective, but I think Chalice would keep it in check.

    Restrict Thorn
    I don't want to see it go, but if the exercise is assuming Thorn or Workshop, I'd much rather see Thorn go. Or else Shops will become a deck that is almost all modern frames, printed post-2009, and might as well be playing Legacy or modern.

    Let's face it. Vintage is a flawed and unbalanced format (MTGO has proven this with a much more rapid metagame than paper), but we love it for what it is and what it was. Some cards are iconic and need to be untouchable preserved and viable as long as possible (Bazaar, Tolarian, FoW, Workshop, Wasteland, Fetchlands, Ancestral, etc).

    You start by saying shops dont need neutering and then you continue by saying we should unrestrict cards to make it a lot more powerful when it's already a top tier deck??? Seriously?

    Following that reasoning I don't think mentor and outcome need to be neutered either. The DCI should probably unrestrict brainstorm, dig through time and Gush for mentor. And mana vault + merchant scroll for outcome.



  • @Macdeath Shops is a different beast. This is because of its linear nature (as an all-artifact deck) compared to how you have to attack blue decks. You can make the deck better with unrestrictions, and it can become worse in context since more hate cards will show up. I'm not saying that's likely to be the case, but that the plausibility of this line of thinking is not worth mocking. Right now the meta has to undermine amorphous blue decks and respect Shops. If instead the meta had to focus foremost on Shops, it could do so.


  • TMD Supporter

    From another thread:

    @nedleeds said in NYSE Open V Official Tournament Report:

    But magic and vintage in general has a stickiness to it. We have 1 gush but nothing in principle has changed. The most efficient rule, but free is king. If you take Misstep away a mentor player may have to think about running a mentor out after tapping out. You may push the fundamental turn back one, or pressure the mentor player into playing a 'naked' mentor.

    I don't think restricting Mental Misstep would change anything about the metagame or reduce the dominance of Shops/Mentor.

    It would change the format tactically, making Spell Pierce much better again. But Mentor decks would just start running Misdirection or two in addition to Misstep again.

    Misstep is as much of a red herring as Probe/Gush was. I don't think restricting it really would do anything to solve the Mentor/Shop dominance problem.



  • Man as a mentor player I would love a mental misstep restriction. I would get three spots opened up to cards that would be good against shops as well as against blue decks.


  • TMD Supporter

    Is the Mentor/Shop "dominance" a problem? If so, then why is it a problem? All this time you could have said there is a FoW and Shop problem. Why is specifically, Mentor, a problem? By what criteria is it "too good" and has to be restricted?



  • @Smmenen

    Just wanted to point out a few dynamics of restricted misstep vs the current mentor/shops dominance and hear your thoughts.

    1- Restricted misstep has the potential to weaken shops as a ripple effect, if Spell pierce, spell snare and/or mana drain replace the slots misstep was in, blue decks would have less dead slots and more ways to interact with shops maindeck.

    2- The blue control vs Storm combo matchup would get really lopsided towards rituals, which weakens mentor.



  • I think a deck consisting of 4 Monastery Mentor, 4 Force of Will, lands and singletons could easily 3-1 a daily in the hands of the right pilot.


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