Human Stompy



  • Just a general question about the humans archetype is general, why don't they play Thalia? It seems like a good card that can provide a clock while the other humans lock down the board and izzet stratocaster plus basilisk collar or if the board seems great against mentor, young pyro, and maybe dredge.

    Edit: I meant stone forge mystic, sorry about that lol



  • @letseeker

    I have never seen a single humans variant not running a playset of Thalias.



  • @Stormanimagus my bad typed the wrong card lol I meant stone forge mystic



  • not human
    not slot efficient
    slow
    every deck in the format has artifact destruction
    blank against combo
    1 power
    batterskull ain't great in this archetype
    batterskull ain't great in this format
    6 mana for jitte is too much
    many of the decks that we want jitte against we want stony silence against
    dack fayden steals jitte
    you never know who's going to run metamorph
    if you do decide you want jitte, just play more jittes
    stoneforge is losing tempo if it's getting jitte
    for almost every card ever printed, the correct number to run in your deck is zero

    and I ❤ jitte



  • @Uvatha said:

    @Nehptis said:

    [...] My meta is flooded with Eldrazi and Shops at the moment. I'd apprecatie some more advice on the play strategy and SBing strategy for those match-ups.

    I'm on-board with the plan to use Dragonslayer and Ordic...thanks!

    @Stormanimagus said:

    @Nehptis

    [...] I've already had a friend design an absolutely absurd White Eldrazi List with 4 Thalia 2.0 and it is really hard for 5-C Humans to beat that card. It makes our Mantis Riders enter tapped and really just slows down our entire game-plan. [...]

    MTGO is still crawling with Eldrazi, and through testing the last several weeks I find that Serene Master is a really good answer:

    alt text

    It makes their attacks unfavorable and will not care about Thalia 2.0 either as long as you get to untap with it. First Strike and Even Blightsteel doesn't make a difference. It is also fairly easy to land against the remaining aggro-based shop decks. The downside is of course that it is very narrow as it cannot attack, so I see it clearly as a SB card. But in contrast to Dragonslayer it is not a one-time use.

    I'm currently on a pure white Human build as this allow me to run 3 Ghost Quarter in addition to the standard 5 LD package that is considered giving me a total of 8 LD. This really helps keep the Eldrazi player off the bigger Eldrazi.

    I also run another very narrow SB card against Eldrazi and the Human mirror:
    alt text

    It looks horrible but after testing it turns out that it actually lifts its own weight . Together with Serene Master it just makes their attacks unfavorable and this card will not get worse once Thalia 2.0 hits us.

    (Either of) those two cards allow me to stall the board while I search for either a flyer or for the Displacer/Containment combo to be assembled.

    That being said, I'm definitely going to try to run some Thalia 2.0 myself! I also have 3 Eldrazi Displacers in my deck as they combo so well with Containment priest (and Banisher Priest and sometimes Leonin Relic-Warder as they will not cancel the indirect card advantage with their removal)

    Let me know if you want to see the list - I'm not sure it is appropriate in this thread as it is not the traditional 5C build.

    How does Serene Master deal with Eldrazi Displacer? What is your out to that card?

    -Storm



  • @Stormanimagus said:

    How does Serene Master deal with Eldrazi Displacer? What is your out to that card?

    Serene Master certainly doesn't deal specifically with that specific Eldrazi, and I didn't claim that it did - It was more my experiences with playing the Eldrazi deck in general. I think it is close to impossible to find a catch-all answer that answers everything. Regarding my answers I run Displacers(/Containment) of my own and also have Banisher Priests. Both of course dependent on board state on how much mana my opponent have untapped before I commit them to the board.

    I find that Tangle Wire and/or Smokestack is my main problem when I play against Eldrazi. I run 3 Leonin Relic-Warders but they are reactive. My only proactive answer to those cards are LD, but one shop and they can get them on the board.



  • @Uvatha

    Displacer is def interesting. I wonder if some knight GWB list could run it and Grand Abolisher to ensure uncounterability. That might actually be amazing. Question though. Would 4 Cavern, 7-8 waste/strip, 1 vault of the archangel be sufficient? Any other utility colorless mana lands I'm forgetting?

    -Storm



  • @Stormanimagus said:

    Displacer is def interesting. I wonder if some knight GWB list could run it and Grand Abolisher to ensure uncounterability. That might actually be amazing. Question though. Would 4 Cavern, 7-8 waste/strip, 1 vault of the archangel be sufficient? Any other utility colorless mana lands I'm forgetting?

    -Storm

    I run 12 lands capable of producing colorless, and I could barely fit them in into my pure white build, and have a high mana count because of it. Perhaps it is possible in a 3 color build - fingers crossed! But I find that 12 is sufficient. You could consider Gavony Township or the new Geier Reach Sanitarium. The last could actually fuel your Knight of the Reliquary with lands, and filter business spells to your hand.



  • @Uvatha said

    When I was looking up Gavony Township this came up. Is Riders of Gavony a possible SB tool for Eldrazi? The 4 CC with WW is a concern.



  • @Nehptis
    Probably too expensive, yes 🙂 Personally, I'd rather use a Serene Master



  • Which issue is the greater threat against Eldrazi? Dealing with blocking the aggro damage of their beefy creatures or the Remove ability of Displacer?

    Im trying to understand which issue to focus on from a SB perspective. Since the aggro issue is addressed with removal or protection as we are discussing. But the Displacer ability can be solved by Pithing Needle for example.



  • @Nehptis Pithing Needle may be the secret sauce right now. Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, Displacer, Ravager, Trike, Equipment, Griselbrand, Vault/Key, Any Plainswalker. On the next tier, rando's like staff of domination, Hangarbacks pump effect, goblin welder. In the Shops match it may even SAVE you a land by tapping to tangle wire without any negative impact. If your list does not support null rod/Stony silence, Pithing needle looks great to me

    Actually the idea of T2 Root Maze Thalia followed by a pithing needle on your opponents fetchland sounds awesome right now.



  • Since any Human deck should run flyers anyway to win any race, Magus of the Moat might be interesting to slow down Eldrazi. Just an idea, haven't seen the latest lists.



  • @p3temangus said:

    @Nehptis Pithing Needle may be the secret sauce right now. Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, Displacer, Ravager, Trike, Equipment, Griselbrand, Vault/Key, Any Plainswalker. On the next tier, rando's like staff of domination, Hangarbacks pump effect, goblin welder. In the Shops match it may even SAVE you a land by tapping to tangle wire without any negative impact. If your list does not support null rod/Stony silence, Pithing needle looks great to me

    Pithing deals with 1 of those. In case you want multiple pithings, think about Damping Matrix. It's a pretty underused card in vintage, I suspect a taboo from old times where creature abilities weren' t as important as nowadays, so Null rod was always > matrix. Currently some lists with mentor/pyromancer should be playing Matrix in the side, as it hits few more targets than null rod/stony silence (griselbrand, welder, displacer, auriok...) and does not harm mana artifacts (so vault, grindstone, triski, ravager... are still hampered while moxen continue working)

    If you are afraid of lands, play moons 🙂



  • @xouman

    I agree. Why isnt Damping Matrix used over Stony Silence? Is the 3cc vs 2cc that much of a hiderence?

    We do have Moxen and Nobels for acceleration to that 3rd mana.



  • @Nehptis said:

    @xouman

    I agree. Why isnt Damping Matrix used over Stony Silence? Is the 3cc vs 2cc that much of a hiderence?

    We do have Moxen and Nobels for acceleration to that 3rd mana.

    Stony silence hates moxen, matrix does not. That is a BIG difference if you are not relying on fast mana. When I started playing vintage, more than 7 years ago, you played either power decks or mana denial decks. Hate decks were not playing fast mana so null rod was better 95% of the time, so I suppose that people does not even consider Damping matrix as a viable card.



  • @xouman thank you for reminding me about dampening matrix! Believe it or not I ran it in the SB of an old TPS list back when mirrodin block first came out as a way to shut down slaver decks.



  • I just did some more testing with Damping Matrix and Hidden Dragon Slayers vs Eldrazi. Matrix definitely saved me a few times. I'm sticking with it over Stony Silence.

    But, the MVP is absolutely Hidden DS. And yes, the removal ability is super helpful. But, the lifelink + the Megamorph with a Noble in play just changes the tempo of the match completely. Who new Lifelink was such a good ability in Vintage!!!

    So, more props to xouman and Soly for that tech! Am I dating myself by using the phrase "more props"? Wait, am I dating myself by asking that question?



  • @Nehptis

    Hidden DS has been my tech for a while.



  • @Stormanimagus

    Given the new card pool, I think I've finally found a Knight Human list that I think addresses everything I need to address.

    4 Knight of the Reliquary
    4 Dark Confidant
    2 Heron's Grace Champion
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    2 Savannah
    4 Noble Hierarch
    3 Mental Misstep
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
    3 Abrupt Decay
    4 Windswept Heath
    1 Scrubland
    2 Bayou
    2 Qasali Pridemage
    3 Stony Silence
    1 Mana Crypt
    4 Cavern of Souls
    1 Karakas
    1 Maze of Ith
    1 Forest
    1 Plains
    1 Strip Mine
    4 Wasteland
    1 Verdant Catacombs
    SB: 2 Heron's Grace Champion
    SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
    SB: 4 Swords to Plowshares
    SB: 4 Containment Priest
    SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
    SB: 3 Pithing Needle

    Take aways from limited testing:

    1. Heron's Grace Champion is insane. This deck can easily leave up the mana for it and it is a great "surprise" combat trick as well as a 3/3 lifelinking body. It is everything I wanted Vault of the Archangel to be without nearly as much of the set-up.

    2. Pithing Needle covers a lot of must answer cards. Cards like Displacer can really ruin your day. This also has the added advantage of being quasi dredge hate.

    3. We must run an answer to Moat. Only running 3 pridemage in the 75 for Moat is a bit scary but I'm ok with it for now. If Moat turns out to be more of an issue I'll start running more answers for it.

    4. Swords to Plowshares is actually a very good "catch all." While Swords is a pretty poor answer to Reality Smasher, it does shine at ridding you of infernal cards like:

    Ravager, Hangarback, Trike, Thalia 2.0, Displacer, Mentor, etc. etc. etc.

    I used to give it crap for being a 1-for-1 but I think it is fine in the current meta.

    1. This is one of the best decks to abuse Bob and Stony Silence and those cards are good in the current meta. Yep.

    I'm open to any and all thoughts. I'm actually pretty happy with this deck and I think it frequently goes over the top of what eldrazi and trike shops are trying to do. It might have some weaknesses to TPS but that is sorta what the missteps are for.

    -Storm


 

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