NYSE Open V Official Tournament Report

  • @Brass-Man said in NYSE Open V Official Tournament Report:

    @nedleeds can you seriously not think of any 2 drops that answer creatures? The fact that you can't Fatal Push a Mentor through Misstep isn't holding any archetypes back.

    The best cards at killing Monastery Mentor (Sudden Shock, Sulfur Elemental, Supreme Verdict, Balance) don't even cost one. Those cards would still be the best cards at killing Monastery Mentor even if Misstep was banned.

    Sure. But you know efficacy is king in Vintage. The opportunity cost of holding up (or getting to) 2 or 3 mana is greater than 1. Let's be clear, if Mental Misstep cost actual mana we wouldn't be looking at the depressing state of deck building in Vintage. Free is better than 1 is better than 2, you already know this obviously. Something like Sudden Shock is so much worse vs. everything but Mentor it's a liability. Holding up 2 mana and impeding your own development is a cost. Its the disgusting no opportunity cost of phyrexian mana that is the crux of the problem. Play it or don't bother with 1's is what got it banned in Legacy. But in Vintage the problem snowballed post Core 2014.


    (in chrono-order)

    Prior to pyromancer Misstep was played in blue decks but it was rarely a 4 of in large top 8's (Bazaar, Champs, Gencon 80+ man). A blend of pierce, sabotage, snare. Also worth noting pre-Pyro Gush is a bit player, getting out performed in those biggest Vintage events by bolas control, bug fish, rug delver. Gush is seen in storm decks mostly or the intrepid doomsday pilot.

    But after Pyromancer the value of maxing out on free spells started an ascension. The go wide approach encouraged tapping out with a lower curve and starting a probe, misstep caligulian orgy of tokens. Then comes dack, a lower to the ground planeswalker with splash damage against LSG. Dack turbo charges Gush while filtering the excess lands you don't need because your spells are free anyway, just like Garfield intended. Now we see 16 free spell decks. This is unprecedented in type 1.

    Next came the dumbest mistake of all in delve. We all know how that turned out, Probe becomes +1 mana, perfect info and card neutral. Misstep is +1 mana, counter a spell for free. Dack is Rite of Flame. Delve synergized so well with all the aforementioned mechanics the deck basically built itself.

    Then we get Mentor which with prowess and 2 initial toughness is much tougher to hate out than pyromancer (remember Slice and Dice?).

    But magic and vintage in general has a stickiness to it. We have 1 gush but nothing in principle has changed. The most efficient rule, but free is king. If you take Misstep away a mentor player may have to think about running a mentor out after tapping out. You may push the fundamental turn back one, or pressure the mentor player into playing a 'naked' mentor.

    The aforementioned textless cards that have no hope of resolving (barring missteping the misstep ... which as I've said is the incestuous deck building and play pattern that got it banned) can proactively deal with mentor. Additionally cards like DRS or Noble Hierarch which currently read Target Opponent loses 2 life and discards a Misstep help in the shop matchup by getting onboard mana through thorn.

    There might be a few good arguments against Misstep out there, but you can't just take every random data point and say they all fit your hypothesis

    This isn't true. The data points aren't random. Misstep and Thorn have crested 90% and hit 100% here at the NYSE. This is an awful state of deck building in type one.

    I'm no fan of Mentor, but I think deck builders could attack it more effectively if the misery of misstep was removed.

    Edit: and this longer post that isn't directly addressing the contents of the top 8 should really just go in the bnr thread.

  • @Stormanimagus said in NYSE Open V Official Tournament Report:

    I fundamentally think the tempo race has changed in Vintage to the point where you need to run crazy tempo swing plays just to keep up these days. I hope that clarifies some of my thoughts.


    Exactly. Because you are in many cases competing with free.

  • apparently anything good enough to be a four-of is a candidate for restriction nowadays.

  • @wappla any card that creates a dichotomy of 100% saturation probably should be up for debate. I think misstep has the most miserable impact on deck construction, but that's an opinion, not a fact.

  • Congrats to everyone in Top 8 (and those in Top 16 for also getting cool prizes), and thanks a million to Nick and everyone else who made NYSE Open V a smashing success!

    My (Dan Nelson) list is missing a sideboard in the write-up, so in case anyone is interested here's what I played:
    4 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Ratchet Bomb
    2 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Phyrexian Metamorph
    2 Coercive Portal
    2 Precursor Golem

  • @nothingsperfect It seems that your username was quite apropos.

    Updated to include your board.

  • TMD Supporter

    @nothingsperfect do you have any input on Coercive Portal? I have not been able to understand why people have been running it, especially in sideboards. It seems like instead of using tempo to draw extra cards later you should just be boarding into cards that you'd want to draw in the first place.

  • @Brass-Man maybe rending volley could be a one drop that takes care of baby Jace and mentor if people really need a one drop...

  • @cutlex To be honest I think I only drew Portal once out of the games I sided it in all day, and it was subpar as I was already on the back foot. The line of thinking is that it is good for games that go long since there are not too many other card advantage sources in the deck. I often find that in sideboarded games my oppts will have lots of removal but be a little light on action, and sticking a Portal for a couple of turns can be huge. It also seemed relevant in the mirror where they have no way to remove it and you can simply trade resources until you come out on top.

    Going forward Portal is probably a little too slow. I liked Will's aggressive sideboard plan for the mirror, as it seemed to work well against most of the shop decks that get grindier post-board. That said, I'm still a fan of maindeck Tangle Wires and am not certain my build is set up to leverage that kind of role shift.

  • Sounds like an amazing event. I haven't played much Type 1 since Neutral Ground closed, but I'm starting to get back into it online. By next year I'll hopefully be back on form and ready to come to NYSE VI. Looking forward to it!