Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO



  • I would have to look up the correct defintion of sportsmanship, but how is giving up without playing good sport? Not playing sounds like uhm being not good sports.


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    @brianpk80 said in Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO:

    @Khahan said in Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO:

    More sportsmanlike for whom? The person who gets a free win and advances?

    Yes, it is more sportsmanlike towards the person sitting across from you who has a chance to advance if you have absolutely no chance to advance. Who would want to sit for an hour across from someone with such hostile intentions? "I have nothing to gain by winning here, but it will at least allow me to ruin your chance of success." To me that would be a "dick move," which is the opposite of sportsmanship.

    We can't take responsibility for the effects of our matches on third parties, only what is before us. It's not unethical to beat your Shops opponent because the person she beat two rounds ago needs her to win in order to have better breakers.

    I don't see how playing to win in a tournament setting can ever be considered a "dick move". The person that can no longer make top 8 came to play and win just the same as the person that can. That person may not have a chance to make top 8 in this scenario, but I don't see why it would be considered a "dick move" to not hand a top 8 spot to the other person.



  • It would be much better if the tournament structure provided and incentive for this not to happen. Does an NBA team have an ethical responsibility to not dump games for a better draft pick? If you answer yes, then don't the rulemakers also have the responsibility of disincentivising that behavior?

    In this case, why not just incentivise winning all the way down. People sometimes collude to get some hidden gain outside of the game, like the Blacksox scandal. That is tough to police. It's also not at all like this situation where a sort of game-dumping reciprocity is baked in to a pretty poorly drawn up "top 8" focused prize structure for only arbitrary reasons so far as I can tell. Just change the pay out structure.



  • @brianpk80 said in Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO:

    @Khahan said in Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO:

    More sportsmanlike for whom? The person who gets a free win and advances?

    Yes, it is more sportsmanlike towards the person sitting across from you who has a chance to advance if you have absolutely no chance to advance. Who would want to sit for an hour across from someone with such hostile intentions? "I have nothing to gain by winning here, but it will at least allow me to ruin your chance of success." To me that would be a "dick move," which is the opposite of sportsmanship.

    We can't take responsibility for the effects of our matches on third parties, only what is before us. It's not unethical to beat your Shops opponent because the person she beat two rounds ago needs her to win in order to have better breakers.

    I don't think forcing somebody to play the same number of rounds of magic as everybody else to earn his way in is a dick move. With that said, I've been on both sides of the situation and it almost always ends with a scoop. Even if we play it out for fun - its still a scoop. The only time I can think of it hasn't been a scoop is when I was facing somebody's teammate - if I won, I'm in. If I lose my opponents teammate is in. This is honestly where I have a greater ethical issue.

    Going back to an earlier post from me, the idea of scooping in this situation should be unhindered by other considerations. Once you start putting caveats on the scoop you are closer to or simply over the line of what is ethical.



  • @brianpk80 said in Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO:

    @Khahan said in Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO:

    More sportsmanlike for whom? The person who gets a free win and advances?

    Who would want to sit for an hour across from someone with such hostile intentions? "I have nothing to gain by winning here, but it will at least allow me to ruin your chance of success." To me that would be a "dick move," which is the opposite of sportsmanship.

    Some people like to play Magic, even after getting two losses.



  • @spook said in Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO:

    @brianpk80 said in Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO:

    @Khahan said in Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO:

    More sportsmanlike for whom? The person who gets a free win and advances?

    Who would want to sit for an hour across from someone with such hostile intentions? "I have nothing to gain by winning here, but it will at least allow me to ruin your chance of success." To me that would be a "dick move," which is the opposite of sportsmanship.

    Some people like to play Magic, even after getting two losses.

    I played Magic, then scooped. One does not necessarily preclude the other.



  • @revengeanceful said in Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO:
    That person may not have a chance to make top 8 in this scenario, but I don't see why it would be considered a "dick move" to not hand a top 8 spot to the other person.

    Because you have nothing to gain from winning aside from ruining the record of the person sitting across from you. I would only do that to someone I hated and there is no one in the Vintage community I dislike, let alone hate.



  • @brianpk80 said in Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO:

    @revengeanceful said in Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO:
    That person may not have a chance to make top 8 in this scenario, but I don't see why it would be considered a "dick move" to not hand a top 8 spot to the other person.

    Because you have nothing to gain from winning aside from ruining the record of the person sitting across from you. I would only do that to someone I hated and there is no one in the Vintage community I dislike, let alone hate.

    So you are saying that round should be treated different from the first round?



  • @Khahan they are different rounds whats surprising about the fact some1 approach them differently? I dont understand you.
    In the first round he has everything in front and he could make it. In the other one he has nothing to win except the personal pride so he can laugh at his opponents face and say i dont care you got more points i bet you bitch. Ego is dangerous. And often is better to not listen to him.



  • I'm finding this thread has hit its useful limits. I find it morally unjustifiable to give someone a free win into the top 8 when it keeps someone else out who actually did enough to deserve it. Brian Kelly feels like it is morally unjustifiable to play someone and ruin their top 8 chance when you personally have nothing to play for or gain from it. They are both valid but no ones mind is being changed.



  • I feel the need to chime in even though i've deactivated my old account so here I am. I'm the one who originally brought up the fact that Chubbyrain threw his match on stream to push Jazza into the top 8 in one of the metagame threads.

    This is a competition. Integrity is a crucial part of competition. Throwing a match is harmful in any competition. The winner of the match should move on. The loser shouldn't. The facts are chubbyrain had this match won 100% and he knew it. He clicks concede to push his friend into the top 8. It sounds like a nice thing to do to help your friend out like that right? It's actually extremely selfish because as mentioned earlier in this thread, someone who actually EARNED their win got denied a top 8 spot. How often does this happen? Do you realize that this also nullifies the metagame analysis/data extracted from the tournaments making it inaccurate? What happened makes shops look even more dominant. You are doing a disservice to the community by falsifying this data. In every competition, wins have to be earned. It's not like Chubby had to leave. He kept playing the rest of the tournament. Play with integrity, not greed in mind. It's not about whether or not something was in it for you or your friend. It's about fair competition and making sure others aren't getting screwed by your actions. This has happened twice so far to my knowledge. Based of what i've read in this thread, it sounds like it happens rather frequently. It's a shame people sacrifice their integrity like this.

    @brianpk80 Characterizing another player's behavior for not giving someone the free win as "hostile behavior" is pathetic. Your attempts at shaming others for playing with integrity is sad.

    @ChubbyRain What you did is considered MATCHFIXING. You literally determined the outcome of the match before the match started because you had zero chance at making top 8. "Oh i'm just gonna scoop to jazza no matter because i don't have a chance to make top 8 but he does if he advances." This is MATCHFIXING and MATCHFIXING IS WRONG. You still had reason to play - better prize/glory. You literally would have made at worst, 16th place that day instead of 17th and doubled your prize. If you didn't want to play or have to go, you drop out. Did you know that MATCHFIXING completely killed off an esport in Korea? Stop damaging the integrity of fair competition.

    Avoid screwing others over and report your matches honestly because if you don't, you are being an asshole to other people who earned their spot. It's not just about prize, it's also about glory and fair competition. Stop robbing people of it, it's not cool.

    All you guys are doing is abusing a flawed system in place for personal gain within your group of friends at the cost of others. STOP ABUSING IT!

    How do you think newcomers or potential new players will think about this sort of thing? How do you think they will feel when they know that even if they earn their spot and play well, they can get shafted out of glory/prize because of these types of actions? You honestly think this is acceptable behavior? Have some respect for the other people who pay ALOT of money to play this format and stop matchfixing, it's more harmful than my complaints about vintage as of late.



  • I don't understand why people feel there's a moral dilemma at all here. Every result negatively impacts someone else regardless, that's the nature of tournament play and by entering an event you are accepting to be a part of that (and no I'm not going to argue degrees on this, it's a game). I've scooped people into top 8s before, even people I don't like. I'm sure in the past it may have impacted friends and my thought to that is "so what?" I have no obligation to them in this regard, if my decision is to concede to my opponent then that's that. Conceding isn't cheating, it's not breaking any rules or otherwise violating some sort of social contract, it's an established part of tournament Magic. This thread is honestly just a thinly-veiled attempt at shaming people for behavior they should have no such feelings about, and I hope @Brass-Man notices this and puts it out of its misery.



  • @Hydra Thanks for saying everyone who disagrees with you is stupid, without a valid point and just trying to be a jerk. I've tried hard to communicate my minority point of view on the topic while still seeing the validity of other views. Stop the personal attacks. When it comes to morality of actions it isn't shocking that people disagree on something. Just because you can't see the validity of another opinion doesn't make it invalid. Same goes for my view of your opinion. Just because I don't understand it doesn't make it invalid.



  • @BobbyVictory yes it does through off the metagame numbers. However, since this happens all the time in Magic everywhere it doesn't through it off anymore then all magic top 8 numbers are thrown off. Which is to say it doesn't really matter because it is the best data we have for this and for all magic. And in this case I believe Atog Lord was also on shops though I could be wrong about that.



  • @KingLeovold I didn't call anyone's opinion stupid, and if you took it as such then perhaps you are taking this discussion in general too personal. Tournament magic is like any other competitive endeavor in that morals don't apply other than the rules themselves, and my opinion that I was expressing is that applying other morals is an irrelevant (not stupid) activity. In sports teams with nothing to play for will rest players and take losses, as well as do the same to try to manipulate who they may face in the future. That's built into competition, an accepted aspect of the game, these are events where millions can be at stake, and yet there's no huge outcry on the morals of it. Tell me, what makes Magic different? Is it your own personal involvement, or do you feel that way across the board on these things?



  • @Hydra sports teams have a responsibility to try and win. Sometimes they show it by competing their best and sometimes they rest players to get a higher draft pick or to get players rested for the playoffs. Either way it is focusing on maximizing their future success. Conceding in magic is nothing like this. Sports teams can still win without playing their best players. It is impossible to win when you conceed. You don't get more prepared for your next match when you conceed and you don't earn better prizes. They have nothing to do with each other.



  • @Hydra and yes I have taken this personally. I was the first to respond to the poll and the first comment (no deleted) was telling me I clearly had no friends online or in real life because I was against conversing. We can disagree without putting down the other side. I felt like your post was completely dismissive of anyone who disagreed with you. Sorry if I mistook what you were saying.



  • @Zylvorak said in Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO:

    @Khahan they are different rounds whats surprising about the fact some1 approach them differently? I dont understand you.
    In the first round he has everything in front and he could make it. In the other one he has nothing to win except the personal pride so he can laugh at his opponents face and say i dont care you got more points i bet you bitch. Ego is dangerous. And often is better to not listen to him.

    You dont understand me, hence the conversation where people give their perspectives and discuss it and gain an understanding. Yes, they are different rounds. And Brian is 100% right in his first statement in the confines of the standings.

    @brianpk80 said in Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO:

    Because you have nothing to gain from winning

    this is the part where the question comes into play:
    @brianpk80 said in Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO:

    aside from ruining the record of the person sitting across from you

    If you play and win did you really 'ruin' the other person's record? Or did you make that person compete fully and to the best of his capabilities? Did you ruin his record or did you even the playing field for everybody else who had to play that round for a win to get in?

    @brianpk80 said in Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO:

    We can't take responsibility for the effects of our matches on third parties

    Brian has already stated his position clearly. In the past Brian and I have been on these boards discussing sportsmanship and our thoughts have been pretty much in sync with each other. We both tend to give sportsmanship in a match very high importance. But this is one minor point on which we disagree.

    If you look back you'll see my original statement was not that I am against scooping in these situations. I fully support it. I just dont like the idea that I am expected to do so and am a bad person if I choose not to scoop due to sportsmanship. Why? Because I do consider other factors outside of my match. Brian doesn't. Neither of us are wrong or right in this situation.



  • @BobbyVictory This is a game. Designed to have fun, and primarily fun with friends. Your taking this WAY too fucking seriously. Scooping to a friend so they can make top 8 is perfectly fine, and happens in tournaments all the time. As Rich Shay has pointed out repeatedly here, it is well within the rules of the game.



  • @BobbyVictory

    1. Jazza is a complete stranger. My only previous interaction with him was playing against him in the finals of a prior event.

    2. It doesn't nullify metagame data in the sense that you expect such instances to be negligible in the long run or to even cancel out. To reiterate, the point of collecting win percentages is to aggregate them - the sample size from one event is not sufficient to conclusively establish the superiority or inferiority of a deck.

    3. Professional competitors are paid to compete. I am not. I am playing Magic and streaming my matches because it's something I enjoy. The obligations are different. And I really don't care about esports in Korea...

    4. The reason I created this thread with the poll was to get people's opinions, including those of newer players. It certainly wasn't to be called an asshole. The vast majority of responders (85%) have considered this acceptable or a moral gray area.

    @KingLeovold

    1. I called out Soly for that initial post and thankfully he or Brassman deleted it. You shouldn't hold it against subsequent posters. I've been called a kingmaker and an asshole with people demanding responses from me, yet I'm trying to not take any of this as personal.

    2. Thank you for your responses. They are appreciated, even if I disagree with them.

    3. Sports teams have fans cheering for them, paying entry fees to watch the game. They have sponsors, who want to be seen by such fans, with winning being a big part of how much attention is paid to the contestants. I don't have any of this. My success is my own as is my desire to play in the event and my desire to win prizes. While people are going to be impacted by my decisions due to the tournament structure, am I really obligated to play to win every single tournament match of Magic regardless of my desire to do so? Am I not allowed to play for fun, with knocking an opponent out of contention not being something that is fun for me (granted, some people relish the role of spoiler)?

    @Khahan

    1. I agree with you. I wouldn't hold it against someone if they played to knock me out of top 8 in the final round of a tournament. I view that as the opposite side of the coin - if you think people should have the right to concede at any point for any reason (excluding bribery), then I think you should also extend the right to not concede for any reason.

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