Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO

  • @brianpk80 said in Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO:

    @revengeanceful said in Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO:
    That person may not have a chance to make top 8 in this scenario, but I don't see why it would be considered a "dick move" to not hand a top 8 spot to the other person.

    Because you have nothing to gain from winning aside from ruining the record of the person sitting across from you. I would only do that to someone I hated and there is no one in the Vintage community I dislike, let alone hate.

    So you are saying that round should be treated different from the first round?

  • @Khahan they are different rounds whats surprising about the fact some1 approach them differently? I dont understand you.
    In the first round he has everything in front and he could make it. In the other one he has nothing to win except the personal pride so he can laugh at his opponents face and say i dont care you got more points i bet you bitch. Ego is dangerous. And often is better to not listen to him.

  • I'm finding this thread has hit its useful limits. I find it morally unjustifiable to give someone a free win into the top 8 when it keeps someone else out who actually did enough to deserve it. Brian Kelly feels like it is morally unjustifiable to play someone and ruin their top 8 chance when you personally have nothing to play for or gain from it. They are both valid but no ones mind is being changed.

  • I feel the need to chime in even though i've deactivated my old account so here I am. I'm the one who originally brought up the fact that Chubbyrain threw his match on stream to push Jazza into the top 8 in one of the metagame threads.

    This is a competition. Integrity is a crucial part of competition. Throwing a match is harmful in any competition. The winner of the match should move on. The loser shouldn't. The facts are chubbyrain had this match won 100% and he knew it. He clicks concede to push his friend into the top 8. It sounds like a nice thing to do to help your friend out like that right? It's actually extremely selfish because as mentioned earlier in this thread, someone who actually EARNED their win got denied a top 8 spot. How often does this happen? Do you realize that this also nullifies the metagame analysis/data extracted from the tournaments making it inaccurate? What happened makes shops look even more dominant. You are doing a disservice to the community by falsifying this data. In every competition, wins have to be earned. It's not like Chubby had to leave. He kept playing the rest of the tournament. Play with integrity, not greed in mind. It's not about whether or not something was in it for you or your friend. It's about fair competition and making sure others aren't getting screwed by your actions. This has happened twice so far to my knowledge. Based of what i've read in this thread, it sounds like it happens rather frequently. It's a shame people sacrifice their integrity like this.

    @brianpk80 Characterizing another player's behavior for not giving someone the free win as "hostile behavior" is pathetic. Your attempts at shaming others for playing with integrity is sad.

    @ChubbyRain What you did is considered MATCHFIXING. You literally determined the outcome of the match before the match started because you had zero chance at making top 8. "Oh i'm just gonna scoop to jazza no matter because i don't have a chance to make top 8 but he does if he advances." This is MATCHFIXING and MATCHFIXING IS WRONG. You still had reason to play - better prize/glory. You literally would have made at worst, 16th place that day instead of 17th and doubled your prize. If you didn't want to play or have to go, you drop out. Did you know that MATCHFIXING completely killed off an esport in Korea? Stop damaging the integrity of fair competition.

    Avoid screwing others over and report your matches honestly because if you don't, you are being an asshole to other people who earned their spot. It's not just about prize, it's also about glory and fair competition. Stop robbing people of it, it's not cool.

    All you guys are doing is abusing a flawed system in place for personal gain within your group of friends at the cost of others. STOP ABUSING IT!

    How do you think newcomers or potential new players will think about this sort of thing? How do you think they will feel when they know that even if they earn their spot and play well, they can get shafted out of glory/prize because of these types of actions? You honestly think this is acceptable behavior? Have some respect for the other people who pay ALOT of money to play this format and stop matchfixing, it's more harmful than my complaints about vintage as of late.

  • I don't understand why people feel there's a moral dilemma at all here. Every result negatively impacts someone else regardless, that's the nature of tournament play and by entering an event you are accepting to be a part of that (and no I'm not going to argue degrees on this, it's a game). I've scooped people into top 8s before, even people I don't like. I'm sure in the past it may have impacted friends and my thought to that is "so what?" I have no obligation to them in this regard, if my decision is to concede to my opponent then that's that. Conceding isn't cheating, it's not breaking any rules or otherwise violating some sort of social contract, it's an established part of tournament Magic. This thread is honestly just a thinly-veiled attempt at shaming people for behavior they should have no such feelings about, and I hope @Brass-Man notices this and puts it out of its misery.

  • @Hydra Thanks for saying everyone who disagrees with you is stupid, without a valid point and just trying to be a jerk. I've tried hard to communicate my minority point of view on the topic while still seeing the validity of other views. Stop the personal attacks. When it comes to morality of actions it isn't shocking that people disagree on something. Just because you can't see the validity of another opinion doesn't make it invalid. Same goes for my view of your opinion. Just because I don't understand it doesn't make it invalid.

  • @BobbyVictory yes it does through off the metagame numbers. However, since this happens all the time in Magic everywhere it doesn't through it off anymore then all magic top 8 numbers are thrown off. Which is to say it doesn't really matter because it is the best data we have for this and for all magic. And in this case I believe Atog Lord was also on shops though I could be wrong about that.

  • @KingLeovold I didn't call anyone's opinion stupid, and if you took it as such then perhaps you are taking this discussion in general too personal. Tournament magic is like any other competitive endeavor in that morals don't apply other than the rules themselves, and my opinion that I was expressing is that applying other morals is an irrelevant (not stupid) activity. In sports teams with nothing to play for will rest players and take losses, as well as do the same to try to manipulate who they may face in the future. That's built into competition, an accepted aspect of the game, these are events where millions can be at stake, and yet there's no huge outcry on the morals of it. Tell me, what makes Magic different? Is it your own personal involvement, or do you feel that way across the board on these things?

  • @Hydra sports teams have a responsibility to try and win. Sometimes they show it by competing their best and sometimes they rest players to get a higher draft pick or to get players rested for the playoffs. Either way it is focusing on maximizing their future success. Conceding in magic is nothing like this. Sports teams can still win without playing their best players. It is impossible to win when you conceed. You don't get more prepared for your next match when you conceed and you don't earn better prizes. They have nothing to do with each other.

  • @Hydra and yes I have taken this personally. I was the first to respond to the poll and the first comment (no deleted) was telling me I clearly had no friends online or in real life because I was against conversing. We can disagree without putting down the other side. I felt like your post was completely dismissive of anyone who disagreed with you. Sorry if I mistook what you were saying.

  • @Zylvorak said in Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO:

    @Khahan they are different rounds whats surprising about the fact some1 approach them differently? I dont understand you.
    In the first round he has everything in front and he could make it. In the other one he has nothing to win except the personal pride so he can laugh at his opponents face and say i dont care you got more points i bet you bitch. Ego is dangerous. And often is better to not listen to him.

    You dont understand me, hence the conversation where people give their perspectives and discuss it and gain an understanding. Yes, they are different rounds. And Brian is 100% right in his first statement in the confines of the standings.

    @brianpk80 said in Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO:

    Because you have nothing to gain from winning

    this is the part where the question comes into play:
    @brianpk80 said in Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO:

    aside from ruining the record of the person sitting across from you

    If you play and win did you really 'ruin' the other person's record? Or did you make that person compete fully and to the best of his capabilities? Did you ruin his record or did you even the playing field for everybody else who had to play that round for a win to get in?

    @brianpk80 said in Ethical Dilemma: Scooping on MTGO:

    We can't take responsibility for the effects of our matches on third parties

    Brian has already stated his position clearly. In the past Brian and I have been on these boards discussing sportsmanship and our thoughts have been pretty much in sync with each other. We both tend to give sportsmanship in a match very high importance. But this is one minor point on which we disagree.

    If you look back you'll see my original statement was not that I am against scooping in these situations. I fully support it. I just dont like the idea that I am expected to do so and am a bad person if I choose not to scoop due to sportsmanship. Why? Because I do consider other factors outside of my match. Brian doesn't. Neither of us are wrong or right in this situation.

  • @BobbyVictory This is a game. Designed to have fun, and primarily fun with friends. Your taking this WAY too fucking seriously. Scooping to a friend so they can make top 8 is perfectly fine, and happens in tournaments all the time. As Rich Shay has pointed out repeatedly here, it is well within the rules of the game.

  • @BobbyVictory

    1. Jazza is a complete stranger. My only previous interaction with him was playing against him in the finals of a prior event.

    2. It doesn't nullify metagame data in the sense that you expect such instances to be negligible in the long run or to even cancel out. To reiterate, the point of collecting win percentages is to aggregate them - the sample size from one event is not sufficient to conclusively establish the superiority or inferiority of a deck.

    3. Professional competitors are paid to compete. I am not. I am playing Magic and streaming my matches because it's something I enjoy. The obligations are different. And I really don't care about esports in Korea...

    4. The reason I created this thread with the poll was to get people's opinions, including those of newer players. It certainly wasn't to be called an asshole. The vast majority of responders (85%) have considered this acceptable or a moral gray area.


    1. I called out Soly for that initial post and thankfully he or Brassman deleted it. You shouldn't hold it against subsequent posters. I've been called a kingmaker and an asshole with people demanding responses from me, yet I'm trying to not take any of this as personal.

    2. Thank you for your responses. They are appreciated, even if I disagree with them.

    3. Sports teams have fans cheering for them, paying entry fees to watch the game. They have sponsors, who want to be seen by such fans, with winning being a big part of how much attention is paid to the contestants. I don't have any of this. My success is my own as is my desire to play in the event and my desire to win prizes. While people are going to be impacted by my decisions due to the tournament structure, am I really obligated to play to win every single tournament match of Magic regardless of my desire to do so? Am I not allowed to play for fun, with knocking an opponent out of contention not being something that is fun for me (granted, some people relish the role of spoiler)?


    1. I agree with you. I wouldn't hold it against someone if they played to knock me out of top 8 in the final round of a tournament. I view that as the opposite side of the coin - if you think people should have the right to concede at any point for any reason (excluding bribery), then I think you should also extend the right to not concede for any reason.

  • @mourningpalace People pay money for their cards and money to play in the tournament which is a competition. Sure, some people play for fun, some people play also play to compete to try and make 1st place. Matchfixing to intentionally manipulate the breakers is messed up because it affects others. To those who say, "We are playing for fun but i'm fine with manipulating breakers/shafting others", Why are you matchfixing then? Why are you manipulating the breakers to gain an advantage if you are only playing for fun? It sounds like a big lie if you ask me. Those very same people want the prize too but are being unethical in the way they are landing it. Hypocrites. "Oh we play for fun, but let me matchfix/abuse the system so I can win prizes for me or my friends/teammates!" lol. I hope you all see how stupid that is.

    @Chubbyrain It doesn't matter if Jazza is a complete stranger, your team mate or your friend. You still threw a match and screwed someone out of a top 8 spot. Not cool at all. In regards to the meta-analysis, It seems as if this sort of thing happens often enough that it could actually affect the percentages. More than likely, we'd have an entirely different winner for the event. That's a big difference. That is also just this one instance we are talking about too. Who knows how many other times it happens. It doesn't matter if you are a professional competitor paid to compete or not, you are still matchfixing by behaving the way you are. It's harmful to others. You are literally responsible for someone not getting prize because you are exploiting the system. Don't try and take the highroad about being called an asshole for being a matchfixer after you constantly personally attack others in the recent past, it just makes it look like you live in a glass house lol.

    What you are doing is harmful to others. People pay big money to play this game, and not to get shafted.

    It's unsportsman-like to screw people who earn it.

    Do you people really feel proud that you win prize without actually earning it? How is it satisfying for you to win prize/glory that way? How does it have any meaning at all?

    My question to you and everyone who voted that it is acceptable to matchfix just because the system allows you to do so is, Will you stop throwing matches/abusing the system or are you going to continue to screw players out of glory, prizes and fair competition?

  • Harmful, Bobby? Matt followed the rules. If you are unhappy with the rules that is one thing. But Matt did what the rules give him an explicit right to do.

  • @The-Atog-Lord This topic isn't about whether the rules permit you to do it. It's about whether it is ethical or not. Those actions are dishonest to say the least and have harmful affects on others(you already know this because someone else got shafted out of a top 8 spot).

  • Dishonest? No. It is Matt's right. It put me in 9th place. But it was legal. I am not upset about it. It was simply following the rules. Not cheating, not deception, not angle shooting. Clearly permitted.

  • @The-Atog-Lord Lying about the outcome of a match is dishonest. He also matchfixed and determined ahead of time that he was going to lose. He admitted defeat by conceding even though he had the match won.

  • You can concede at any time during a match. This includes at the very start, or with a lethal spell on the stack. Nothing dishonest about that.

  • @BobbyVictory ok. So you dont care if its permited or not. Just want to know if is ethical or not. See? This is the problem because the answer could be yes or no depending on who you ask. We all have different points of view and the same scenario generates infinite outcomes depending on the observer. So again, was it ethical? You will never get an absolute answer for this. Dont feel alone youll find plenty of people thinking like you. But dont be surprised neither when you find people with the opposite idea. But guess what. If you ask is it allowed? You will get the same answer. Is it within the rules?
    Now, if you want the rules to be changed or rivisited thats a totally different topic. The world is plenty of "unfair" things that are supported by the law. Deal with it. Move ahead. Or change the rules.

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