Cards to unrestrict



    1. don't take anyone who wants Library of Alexandria or Balance seriously. That would be horendeously bad for the format and I'm convinced anyone who wants this doesn't care about the format.

    2. If you unrestrict Demonic Consultation, Myself, @JACO , and @Smmenen will each come up with a different way to show you why that's a FUCKING TERRIBLE idea.

    Moving on

    Unrestrictions:

    1. Lotus Petal - I don't fear a lotus petal for the same reasons I don't fear Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, or Mox Opal. This card definitely has the least amount of drawback, but being a 1 Time Use (outside Willenium) means It's an interesting unrestriction.
    2. Yawgmoth's Bargain - We have a 7/7 Lifelinking Yawgmoth's Bargain with a split cost of 1G/2U. This card is fine.
    3. Memory Jar - In today's world, both players drawing 7 usually gives your opponent enough misteps/flusterstorms/traps/forces to stop you from killing them anyway. Besides, tapping 5 for jar fucking blows, and we can only play 1 tinker.
    4. WIndfall
    5. Fastbond - Gush is restricted, why is fastbond unrestricted?
    6. Chalice of the Void - Lodestone Golem should have been restricted instead of this card the first time around.
    7. Merchant Scroll - Merchant Scroll wasn't really broken until it started getting Gush. I feel strongly this card can be unrestricted, and would diversify people as they would play Gifts.
    8. Time Vault - Revert this back to having to skip a turn to untap, and not able to untap it otherwise, and then unrestrict it.


  • They've done a decent job cleaning up the list for the most part. There's nothing on there anymore that you have to ask yourself the question why.

    The safest is probably Fastbond now. You would need to build an entire deck around it for it to be broken, and its 1-1'ed by one of the most common counterspells in Mental Misstep. I think it would be fairly tame, and was even on the borderline of being un-restrictable even before Gush's re-restriction. If it does see play, its in a deck that's strong against shops and weaker against blue. That a good type of deck to have in the format.

    I'd be very cautious with any of these cards that are already seeing wide play (Library, Balance, Scroll, ect.). While they themselves are some of the weaker cards on the restricted list, they are still seeing play as singletons. They could quickly vault themselves to prevalent 4-ofs if unrestricted. We should wait until they stop seeing play again, similar to how we waited on Gifts and Thirst.

    That leads us to Bargain, Flash, Windfall, Channel, and 1 mana tutors. None see wide play, but they all have strong build around early game ending potential. We don't really need the format to be faster right now.


  • TMD Supporter

    @vaughnbros said in Cards to unrestrict:

    We don't really need the format to be faster right now.

    Why? Do you consider this a particularly fast iteration of Vintage?

    This is a complicated issue because it's really three separate issues that become quickly conflated:

    1. There is the normative issue of what the speed of the format should, as a general matter. This used to be a common debate in Vintage, but hasn't been in recent years because, during the Gush era, Vintage has been so slow.

    2. There is the descriptive issue, of how fast this vintage format is relative to other iterations of the format.
      On this point, I don't think there is any doubt or question that this format is generally slower, on average, than formats of past decades.

    3. Then, there is the balancing issue, perhaps the most complicated of all, as to whether concerns over speed should be/or are subordinate to other concerns, such as diversity.

    I'd argue that the way Vintage is currently constructed, you can simultaneously increase the speed and diversity of the format, but it's harder to increase the strategic diversity of the format without increasing it's speed.

    Put more directly, pushing to make some Turn 2 combo decks viable again could enhance the strategic diversity of the format.



  • @Smmenen

    What current under represented strategy is being surpressed by the restricted list?

    PO and Dredge are still both brutally powerful combo decks that are ominipresent in the current meta.

    In terms of speed, yeah, we've moved away from the time of coin flip magic. That is a great development for our format.

    The coin flip is the worst rule in all of magic. It takes away all skill in terms of deck construction and play converting it all to variance. That is not a good thing for a game that prides itself on being more than just gambling.

    Frankly, until the core rules of magic are revisited on this subject, I think there needs to be a waryness of any cards facilitating turn 1 kills.


  • TMD Supporter

    @vaughnbros said in Cards to unrestrict:

    PO and Dredge are still both brutally powerful combo decks that are ominipresent in the current meta.

    I don't consider Dredge a combo deck. I consider it a Reanimation strategy. Granted, some people consider that a combo deck, but I think that's a classification error, if you look at the history of the game, development of the format, and structure and genealogy of the strategy, in particular.

    And, while there are fast PO decks, most PO decks are deliberately slower than they might be. Most of the PO decks I've seen doing well recently are Mana Drain decks, which suggests how fast they plan to be.

    Also, answering that they are "brutally powerful" does not answer, but elides the issue. Power and speed are not the same thing, and power, apparently, is not the same thing as winning. Many of the least powerful decks win more than the most powerful.

    In terms of speed, yeah, we've moved away from the time of coin flip magic. That is a great development for our format.

    When was the coin flip era, in your recollection, of Vintage?

    I'd really like to know.



  • @vaughnbros said in Cards to unrestrict:

    @Smmenen

    What current under represented strategy is being surpressed by the restricted list?

    PO and Dredge are still both brutally powerful combo decks that are ominipresent in the current meta.

    In terms of speed, yeah, we've moved away from the time of coin flip magic. That is a great development for our format.

    The coin flip is the worst rule in all of magic. It takes away all skill in terms of deck construction and play converting it all to variance. That is not a good thing for a game that prides itself on being more than just gambling.

    Frankly, until the core rules of magic are revisited on this subject, I think there needs to be a waryness of any cards facilitating turn 1 kills.

    I agree on the coin flip. I, personally believe that the player on the draw should draw 8 cards. Then, we MIIIGHT have some semblance of fairness in who goes first.



  • @Stormanimagus said in Cards to unrestrict:

    @vaughnbros said in Cards to unrestrict:

    @Smmenen

    What current under represented strategy is being surpressed by the restricted list?

    PO and Dredge are still both brutally powerful combo decks that are ominipresent in the current meta.

    In terms of speed, yeah, we've moved away from the time of coin flip magic. That is a great development for our format.

    The coin flip is the worst rule in all of magic. It takes away all skill in terms of deck construction and play converting it all to variance. That is not a good thing for a game that prides itself on being more than just gambling.

    Frankly, until the core rules of magic are revisited on this subject, I think there needs to be a waryness of any cards facilitating turn 1 kills.

    I agree on the coin flip. I, personally believe that the player on the draw should draw 8 cards. Then, we MIIIGHT have some semblance of fairness in who goes first.

    You mean whoever goes first gets 7, whoever is on the draw gets 8 and draws for turn?


  • TMD Supporter

    I don't think anyone wants a coin flip format. That sounds awful.

    But it's a straw man to suggest that a faster format is tantamount to a coin flip format. This is a pretty slow format, and there are lots of fast answers.

    There is a tremendous gulf between a faster format and an actual coin flip format.

    There is ample room for more speed combo decks without degenerating into coin flips. And, the presence of cards like Misstep and Mindbreak Trap, which didn't exist a decade ago, not to mention Cage and Stony Silence, make that even harder.



  • @Smmenen

    Calling it a coin flip format was simply hyperbole. The coin flip is certainly not as important as it was prior to the restriction of Lodestone + Chalice, and less important than it was in the days of flash, dragon, ect.



  • I want to play with 4 copies of channel.

    I want to play with 4 copies of demonic consultation.

    I will not say whether or not these are good ideas, but they would make vintage more enjoyable for me, as I try very hard to make things less enjoyable for my opponent.


  • TMD Supporter

    @vaughnbros said in Cards to unrestrict:

    @Smmenen

    Calling it a coin flip format was simply hyperbole. The coin flip is certainly not as important as it was prior to the restriction of Lodestone + Chalice, and less important than it was in the days of flash, dragon, ect.

    Could you break this down/elaborate a little bit more?

    I'd like to know exactly which versions of the format (provide months/years if you can) in which you felt the coin flip was unacceptably relevant?

    You stated the metagame prior to the restriction of Golem & Chalice, but do you stretch that back to the printing of Chalice or the printing of Golem or some period after both? There is an 7 year gap between those printings.

    And, you referenced Dragon combo, but which dates in particular? Dragon was most popular in the period in which Psychatog was the best deck in the format, and won it's largest tournament in a Top 8 of 7 Mana Drain decks in 2005. Dragon was not ever known as a "speed" combo deck, so that's a puzzling reference.

    And you mentioned Flash. The errata on Flash occurred in May, 2007, and Flash was restricted in June, 2008. Do you consider that entire period unacceptably coin-flippy? Or just some months/periods? Bear in mind that Flash was almost never more than 10% of the metagame or Top 8s (and usually somewhere between 4-8%), so it's hard to describe a format as "coin" flippy when very few matches involved flash.



  • @Smmenen

    Have I ever said unacceptably coin flippy? Why are you putting words into my mouth?

    What I was saying is: Less reliant on coin flips = A better format.


  • TMD Supporter

    @vaughnbros said in Cards to unrestrict:

    @Smmenen

    Have I ever said unacceptably coin flippy? Why are you putting words into my mouth?

    Well, you said "In terms of speed, yeah, we've moved away from the time of coin flip magic. That is a great development for our format."

    So, I'd like to know, with more specificity, what that "time" was. With months/years, if possible. You named some strategies and cards, but were pretty vague about that "time." I don't recall the period you are talking about as a "time of coin flip magic," and I've been an active vintage player through all of those periods, so I'd like to know what you experienced or are referring to.



  • @Smmenen

    Lodestones printing until Chalice's restriction was a time period I just gave you that was more coin flippy than it is now. I never once said it was "unacceptably coin flippy" although certainly some people thought that leading to the restriction of Chalice.

    The times in which these types of turn 1 strategies were more prevalent certainly indicate a time when the coin flip was more important.


  • TMD Supporter

    @vaughnbros said in Cards to unrestrict:

    @Smmenen

    Lodestones printing until Chalice's restriction was a time period I just gave you that was more coin flippy than it is now.

    Thank you. But what you actually said was "The coin flip is certainly not as important as it was prior to the restriction of Lodestone + Chalice"

    That's was ambiguous phrasing, because one reading of that sentence is that the "coin flip was not as important prior to the restrictions of BOTH Lodestone and Chalice," as opposed to the clarification you just provided. So, one reading puts the end of that period with the restriction of Golem, and the other with the restriction of Chalice. That's a difference of half a year. You just resolved the ambiguity.

    While that's helpful clarification, you still didn't fully answer my question about you meant when you said "the time of coin flip Magic."

    Is that era, in your view, simply the period in which Chalice and Golem were played together or was there some other period you had in mind? You mentioned Flash, Dragon, "etc." but didn't specify periods. So, I'm trying to understand if those references are superfluous to this "time" or part of how you experienced the format.



  • @Smmenen

    You haven't answered my initial question about how unrestricting combo decks helps with strategical diversity.

    I feel the time periods in which we had a much more size-able amount of combo in the early to mid 2000's also seemed much more coin flip oriented to me than the format is currently. PO is the only deck were I feel there is a substantial difference between my win/loss % if I win/lose a coin flip in the match. Shops has been fairly neutered in that regard.

    Do you feel that decks like Flash, Dragon, and numerous storm variants of that time period were slower than the current iterations of PO? Do you feel we should have faster decks than PO now? How would such a deck help the format exactly?


  • TMD Supporter

    I want to fully understand your position before I provide my counterpoint or answer. I've found it counterproductive to debate with you and simultaneously try to understand your position. That's led to a tremendous waste of time in the past, such as the posts debating what would happen if Gush were restricted, where we were also debating over ranges/data sources, etc. Once I got clarification on your position, I was able to launch my counterpoints more effectively without stumbling over semantics or data discrepancies (btw, I've been proven right in that debate).

    The "early to mid-2000s" is a very large period, that had very different metagames. The 2000 metagame was defined by Necropotence, until it's restriction. Necro-Trix was a brutal deck, but not particularly fast. The 2001 metagame was all about Fact or Fiction fueled Morphling decks. There was almost no viable combo in that metagame, despite some fools playing Neo-Academy. The 2002 metagame, similarly, had very little combo. So it's pretty confusing and extremely imprecise of you to say "early to mid-2000s."

    The period between October, 2000 and May, 2003 (when Scourge was released, and Storm cards like Tendrils were pritned), had very, very little combo in the top performing decks, with the exception of Dragon, but even then, Dragon wasn't printed until Judgement, in May 2002. So that's still nearly a two year period in that block of time where combo was dormant.

    After the restriction of Mind's Desire, it wasn't until at least a few months before Long & Rector Trix actually became a thing, and even then Long was promptly restricted in December, restricting both LED and Burning Wish, driving storm combo pretty much out of the US for years, (altough TPS was pretty popular in Europe through the Trinisphere year) until the legalization of Portal. I remember arguing with you on this point before.

    And finally, Flash didn't even exist in the period you just gave. Flash, again, was errated in May 2007, and restricted in 2008. So, it's simply unclear what "time" you are talking about.

    The year 2001 was probably the least coin flippy year I can ever remember in this format. It was essentially just BBS mirrors and Keeper, with garbage (like Sligh, Stompy, and Suicide Black) behind them. Even 2005 was dominated primarily by Control Slaver, Gifts, and other Mana Drain decks, once Trinisphere was restricted earlier (February) in that year. None of those years were particularly coin flippy, with perhaps the brief exception of the last three months of 2003, before the restriction of LED/B. Wish.

    So, there is some pretty remarkable lack of precision in your claims that requires clarification before I can attempt to contest them.



  • @Smmenen

    Yet you still find a way to completely ignore my point, and focus on arguing semantics which I have actual no interest in. Good day to you.


  • TMD Supporter

    @vaughnbros said in Cards to unrestrict:

    @Smmenen

    Yet you still find a way to completely ignore my point, and focus on arguing semantics which I have actual no interest in. Good day to you.

    There is a difference between requesting clarification and arguing semantics.

    I specifically said I'm not ignoring your point -- and will respond -- but before I address it I want to understand your position. Because what you're saying right now doesn't make much sense.



  • @Smmenen

    I've made my position clear that I do not think that a format that is more coin flip dependent is good. I do not see how me not defining eras as precisely as you is anything more than semantics.


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