Cards to unrestrict



  • Ponder, Fastbond, Flash, Windfall, Necropotence, Yawgmoths Bargain, Channel, Library of Alexandria, even Timetwister could be taken off the list. Would it lead to more "coin flippy" games? Yes. Would it create 5++ new decks and archetypes? Yes. Would these new glass cannon decks do better than Belcher, PO, Dredge, Oath, MUD, and Mentor? No.

    Its all the same guys. You say one is broken, the other is not. Force of Will, Mental Misstep, Spheres, Wasteland, Null Rod, Mindbreak Trap, Duress efx, Leylines, the cards FIX THEMSELVES. There is an answer to EVERYTHING.

    LET THE CARDS BE FREE.


  • TMD Supporter

    @Smmenen I actually played a flash Hulk deck months ago and had to play 2 see beyond. I found that playing show and tell + therapy with hiveminds and 4 summoners pact and only one hulk was the way to go so that you could fight the graveyard hate postboard. The deck was pretty strong and if flash and/or brainstorm came off the list it might be a player.


  • TMD Supporter

    @tsoatt

    Interesting. Based on your experience, what would you say to people who are afraid that just unrestricting Flash might create problems for the format?


  • TMD Supporter

    Ponder is definitely restricted because of Gush. Ponder was a primarily used as an instrument of the Gush mana base; Vintage decks weren't playing "Opt" otherwise; they were playing Accumulated Knowledge and Thirst for Knowledge. If Gush were never unrestricted, Ponder would have never seen play. They restricted Gush, Brainstorm, Scroll, and Ponder all at once so people just threw in restricted Ponders into what used to be Brainstorm slots.

    If you could go back to 2005 and cut your Thirsts for Ponders, you get blown out. It's fairly comical to imagine.

    I've said it when it happened and I'm saying it now. Ponder was the stupidest restriction the DCI ever came up with, even stupider than Gitaxian Probe. (People are only now realizing that DCI is incompetent???). Ponder is not even worth talking about unrestricting because it's so stupid that you get dumber just be trying to understand what the DCI is thinking

    With regards to Flash, it could probably come off but then we would actually have another brainless, but good deck in the format. So it's a losing proposition for my tastes. It wasn't so much that Flash was broken, but it was boring. "Oh you have land, Mox, Flash? I guess you win! Play again? Oh land, Mox, Flash? Okay good games!" Do you want matches to go like this?



  • Anybody who wants to unrestrict Flash, I will offer to play you for $10/game at Eternal Weekend this year if I get to play 4 copies of Flash vs. your current deck. You will regret it. The deck should not be using the kill conditions mentioned above. It should be based on the article I wrote last year, with Show and Tell. You do not rely on the graveyard, but utilize it better than anyone else. Serenity + Hurkyl's Recall makes the Workshop matchup a joke.

    Having access to both Omniscience and Bargain totally changes the calculus as compared to previous iterations of Flash. Giving the best color an even faster (effective) game ending 2 mana spell at instant speed is a very, very poor idea. I'm not sure how unrestricting Flash does anything to change the power and effectiveness of unrestricted Mentor decks (and the corresponding metagame), which have 4 copies of arguably the best kill condition ever printed.



    1. Flash should stay restricted. Remembering decks like Hulk Flash (at least in legacy) were absolutely miserable. Understandably, having a natural turn one kill happens in vintage sometimes. But consistently facing down a deck that can win turn "0" if you are on the draw and easily turn 1, no one wants to face that down. It is ridiculously hard to combat and the meta would change rapidly for the worse in my opinion.

    Lodestone Golem
    Anyhow, the card I would like to see unrestricted is Lodestone Golem. Yes, it was just recently put on the list and everyone breathed a sigh of relief. However, in my opinion shops has not gotten any less scary it is just a different beast. With the advent of walking Ballista, shops players suddenly had three spots open that were easily filled with a walking machine gun instead of the golem and then some.

    Unrestricting Lodestone puts the option back on the table and makes the shops player make a potentially very difficult decision. Run the old list, the new, or some hybrid. However, making room for all of them seems difficult. It brings a traditional stax deck back into play, which play different than what we have now. Admittedly, this is making arguably the strongest deck in the format even stronger, but it could shake up the meta. The devil we knew might be a lot less scary than the devil we have now.

    Also we should Unban Shahrazad, I think it is a fantastic idea...



  • Brainstorm isn't restricted because of Gush, that's absurd. It's restricted because of fetchlands.

    I wouldn't say anything needs to come off right now. Just Mentor needs to go like it already had last announcement.



  • @fsecco It was restricted along with ponder and Merchant Scroll in order to address the Gush-bond engine. Fetchlands had already been available for several years.


  • Administrators

    @Aaron-Patten said in Cards to unrestrict:

    @fsecco It was restricted along with ponder and Merchant Scroll in order to address the Gush-bond engine.

    It was restricted along with Ponder, Merchant Scroll, and Gush itself. (and for that matter, Flash, which also synergized with Brainstorm, Ponder, and Merchant Scroll)

    Saying that Brainstorm/Ponder/Scroll were restricted in order to make Gush decks worse just doesn't make any sense. There was never supposed to be a time where Gush was unrestricted and Merchant Scroll wasn't. The decision to unrestrict Gush years later could not have been anticipated by the people making the restriction decision at that time.



  • @Brass-Man Yes, it was part of the original engine which was all restricted at once.

    Quoting this article:
    http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/shadowmoors-impact-standard-2008-06-06
    "Merchant Scroll, Brainstorm and Ponder have all been added to the restricted list. Merchant Scroll tutors for the most powerful cards. Likewise the access power of Brainstorm and Ponder make finding the powerful restricted cards in a deck too easy."
    Yet, Preordain and many other cantrips still exist unrestricted. I don't think it would have been restricted if it weren't for Gush. Same with Ponder.


  • TMD Supporter

    @JACO said in Cards to unrestrict:

    Anybody who wants to unrestrict Flash, I will offer to play you for $10/game at Eternal Weekend this year if I get to play 4 copies of Flash vs. your current deck. You will regret it. The deck should not be using the kill conditions mentioned above. It should be based on the article I wrote last year, with Show and Tell. You do not rely on the graveyard, but utilize it better than anyone else. Serenity + Hurkyl's Recall makes the Workshop matchup a joke.

    Having access to both Omniscience and Bargain totally changes the calculus as compared to previous iterations of Flash. Giving the best color an even faster (effective) game ending 2 mana spell at instant speed is a very, very poor idea. I'm not sure how unrestricting Flash does anything to change the power and effectiveness of unrestricted Mentor decks (and the corresponding metagame), which have 4 copies of arguably the best kill condition ever printed.

    This article: http://www.eternalcentral.com/giftsweek-gifts-rector-omniscience/ ?

    Here is your deck:

    [Business] (36)
    4 Force of Will
    2 Thoughtseize
    3 Cabal Therapy
    1 Rebuild
    1 Sensei’s Divining Top
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Flash
    1 Tinker
    3 Show and Tell
    3 Academy Rector
    4 Gifts Ungiven
    1 Omniscience
    1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain
    1 Blightsteel Colossus
    1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    1 Yawgmoth’s Will

    [/Business] (0)

    [Mana Sources] (24)
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Tolarian Academy
    2 Ancient Tomb
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Scalding Tarn
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Tundra
    1 Island
    1 Swamp

    [/Mana Sources] (0)
    [Sideboard] (15)
    1 Rebuild
    1 Hurkyl’s Recall
    1 Energy Flux
    1 Serenity
    1 Rest in Peace
    4 Leyline of the Void
    1 Helm of Obedience
    2 Mental Misstep
    2 Defense Grid
    1 Toxic Deluge[/Side

    What nice about the deck, as you say, is that it doesn't rely on the graveyard, because you can just use Show and Tell. But it certainly wants to be able to use it's graveyard. Rector can't trigger with Leyline in play, nor can you flashback Therapy. Gifts/Will is pretty awkward as wlel.

    This deck is definitely more difficult to hate out then the Flash decks I was brewing above, but it's also definitely alot less consistent in terms of being able to assemble the Flash combo. With Leyline in play, all you have to do is counter Show and Tell and your deck is largely dead in the water.

    It's probably just as viable to do what Dredge often does, and bounce the hate rather than try to play around it like you do.

    I'm not saying this isn't a good deck, I just don't think it would be dominant. Vintage has so many tools for combating these types of decks these days.

    I'm not sure how unrestricting Flash does anything to change the power and effectiveness of unrestricted Mentor decks (and the corresponding metagame),

    The idea of unrestricting Flash is an alternative way to deal with a metagame that is strangled by Shops/Mentor. It doesn't do anything about Mentor directly, except create a deck that could compete with it.

    Unrestricting Flash either creates new decks or strengthens an existing, marginal strategy. I don't think anyone can dispute that from a purely logical perspective. The issue isn't whether unrestricting Flash would do that, the question is whether the costs of having that kind of deck outweigh the benefits. Specifically, whether having a new deck or improved Flash strategy in the metagame to improve the diversity in the metagame is worth the cost or risk of having a deck that can do really broken things and be generally unfun.



  • Strongly suspect the pro-Flash posters and upvoters are actually all David Ho just trying to get the card unrestricted so he can sell the original art for $$$. Can't see any other logical reason anyone wants that card to be a 4-of.


  • TMD Supporter

    The logic behind unrestricting Flash isn't that difficult to understand.

    • Doing so would create a new deck & increases diversity in metagame that is now mostly just Shops, Mentor, and a bit of PO/Oath/Dredge

    The reasons not to unrestrict Flash are equally easy to understand:

    • Makes a deck that can potentially kill on Turn 1 with little set up or protection, making Vintage less fun or interactive.

    I can understanding someone opposing the unrestriction of Gush on the latter grounds, but I can't understand how someone can't understand the former grounds. That doesn't mean we should unrestrict Flash, but it's not hard to understand "the logical reason."



  • @Aaron-Patten said in Cards to unrestrict:

    @Brass-Man Yes, it was part of the original engine which was all restricted at once.

    Quoting this article:
    http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/shadowmoors-impact-standard-2008-06-06
    "Merchant Scroll, Brainstorm and Ponder have all been added to the restricted list. Merchant Scroll tutors for the most powerful cards. Likewise the access power of Brainstorm and Ponder make finding the powerful restricted cards in a deck too easy."
    Yet, Preordain and many other cantrips still exist unrestricted. I don't think it would have been restricted if it weren't for Gush. Same with Ponder.

    If fetchlands didn't exist, Brainstorm wouldn't be restricted. Period.



  • If Flash is "OK" to unrestrict to make a new archetype that would be of equal power to Mud and Mentor, then why not Channel and Balance? Turn 1 these are all of "equal" power and would give the same results of new archetypes if your not worried about more turn 1 wins/blowouts @Smmenen ?


  • TMD Supporter

    @Serracollector said in Cards to unrestrict:

    If Flash is "OK" to unrestrict to make a new archetype that would be of equal power to Mud and Mentor, then why not Channel and Balance? Turn 1 these are all of "equal" power and would give the same results of new archetypes if your not worried about more turn 1 wins/blowouts @Smmenen ?

    I've already said this, but it bears repeating, I don't think the Vintage format should have a deck that can consistently win on Turn 1. But I do think that the current format can bear a little bit of speeding up. I don't think having a deck that wins, undisrupted, a slightly higher percentage of the time on Turns 1-3 than current decks would be a bad thing, if it measurably improved the diversity in the metagame. Closer historical baselines for Vintage would be fine.

    I also said that the two cards I'd start with unrestricting are Windfall and/or Bargain, and "seriously consider" Flash, behind those two. So, I'm not on the "let's unrestrict Flash now" camp. My position is more subtle than that.

    Flash is a deck that is vulnerable to very specific forms of hate that are readily available to all decks. The two main Flash creatures, Protean Hulk and Rector, don't work if Leyline is in play. Channel is not similarly vulnerable. You can do a much wider range of things with Channel, like cast Emrakul or Charbelcher.

    Also, I don't think a deck designed to Balance on Turn 1 just to wipe the opponent's hand would be that good. But I do think that Balance is sufficiently obnoxious that, while it probably woudn't dominate the format, there are real risks that it is too much of a wipeout effect for creature decks, and would therefore strategically narrow, not expand, the format.

    Flash is a very narrow card that would essentially create a new deck without specifically knocking anything out, and has very specific weaknesses that every deck could exploit. It appears, for example, that Pithing Needle & Leyline stop most Flash combos. From the perspective of just trying to create a new deck and improve strategic diversity, Flash is a very obvious target. The problem is that it's also probably not very fun to face and/or play against.



  • @POXEVERYTURN
    If I remember correctly that's Richard Garfield's favorite card as well. Not that it should really make a difference, but I do also happen to agree with you.


  • TMD Supporter

    What would be the worst-case scenario for unrestricting Fastbond? My imagination tells me that at the very least we'd get a playable Vintage Lands deck, but I'm also not much of a Vintage brewer so there may be consequences I'm not seeing. Does an unrestricted Fastbond fall into that sweet spot Steve is talking about with regards to a deck that speeds up the format, but doesn't lead to a deck that can consistently win on Turn 1?



  • @jimmycolorado

    Here's a first draft of an unpowered lands deck with fastbond that's built in the style of a mana lock deck. Use null rod and strip / waste recursion to lock people out. Then kill them once locked.

    Engine (16)
    4 fast bond
    4 exploration
    3 rampup excavator
    4 crucible of world's
    1 horn of greed (don't want to draw this until allready have green enchantment resolved)

    Lock (6)
    4 null rod
    2 sphere of resistance

    Misc (5)
    4 misstep
    1 probe

    Land Destruction (6)
    4 waste
    1 strip
    1 ghost quarters

    Tutors and targets (10)
    4 crop rotation
    1 workshop
    1 tabernacle
    2 glacial chasm (a lot of decks as currently configured only have one strip, so chasm plus a crucible effect locks them out, also combo with fastbond and horizon canopy to draw whole deck)
    1 depths
    1 stage

    Other lands (17)
    4 horizon canopy
    4 fetch lands
    6 forests
    3 ancient tombs

    This is off the cuff, so there is room for improvement.

    The other direction I think fastbond would be strong in is draw 7 style combo. That's a bit harder to rebuild without a lot of goldfish testing. That's the more scary angle to me.


  • TMD Supporter

    The following gem that won a Black Lotus at a 54-man event in the gool ol' days would be my starting point for a 4 Fastbond deck. While we don't have access to 4 Brainstorm anymore, we do have access to a full set of Crop Rotation and Regrowth, let alone the fact that the card pool has probably doubled since this deck won.


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