Turbo Xerox and Monastery Mentor



  • @jhport12 said in Turbo Xerox and Monastery Mentor:

    @Sovarius

    If you understood the point, then I don't know why you were mentioned a 4-cast card. That's not intended as snark, it's just that mentioning 4cc didn't make much sense.

    No, the only point of that was about Cycling and how we wouldn't get that effect for less than 4 mana (imo).



  • @nedleeds said in Turbo Xerox and Monastery Mentor:

    VintageGreg, I love you like the intoxicated brother who lives in Detroit I never knew but I can't understand why Zodiac Dragon is the trench you want to die in. Unless you have like 1,000 in your secret stash. I am all for cards to be used as the creator intended, I would have gone to war for Winter Orb for days on end. I think there are just other older cards ahead in the line, most notably Serendib Djinn. How the xerox turned B&R death battle turned power level errata left turn in this thread happened is confusing, maybe we need a "Card that you feel should be restored: Make your case" thread.

    Had to actually go read Serendib Djinn, and yeah I have no idea how they haven't fixed that. It's basically the same thing as The Abyss, and they never bothered to errata that to read sacrifice.

    I guess the fact that a 4 mana Mahamoti isn't playable, plus there being so few copies around means it slipped under the radar. There's not much argument that it's a radical departure from the power of the card as printed.



  • @sovarius

    I think I see what you are saying. I wouldn't disagree.


  • TMD Supporter

    @brianpk80 said in Turbo Xerox and Monastery Mentor:

    1. New Cards

    It's easy to print cards that eschew taxing without much creative effort. It would be preferable if Wizards printed cards that were conscious of the taxing problem. The main issue with that right now is that this has been the best argument since 2010. No one has any faith left that this will happen or patience for that matter. This is doubly confounding because they now have a specific venue for printing Eternal legal cards that have no effect on Standard or Modern (Conspiracy, Commander). The fact they have refused to utilize this has been a repeated slap in the face for those of us that believed issues regarding Standard and Modern were the biggest practical barriers to effective printings.

    1. Workshop Itself

    It's an act of extreme generosity that Mishra's Workshop is unrestricted despite being so over the line in every objective metric. The corollary to keeping it around is that more of the toys end up having to be regulated. If there are complaints about a restricted list with Lodestone Golem, Thorn, Revoker, and Chalice, we should wonder "would we rather unrestrict two or three of those and restrict Mishra's Workshops?" I would hope the answer would be no.

    When R&D is designing cards, their goal is "sell as many packs as possible". They absolutely do not have time or motivation to give two poops about Vintage. Maybe they give half a poop on a good day, because they have Grandpa Belcher in the office nowadays, but realistically Standard is their bread and butter, with also a little casual play (Commander, Conspiracy, Un Sets).

    If they were smart though, they would try to do these things. Like when Delve is a huge part of your block, make a delve Shatter. Make a Phyrexian mana Shatter. And so on.



  • @islandswamp said in Turbo Xerox and Monastery Mentor:

    @brianpk80 said in Turbo Xerox and Monastery Mentor:

    1. New Cards

    It's easy to print cards that eschew taxing without much creative effort. It would be preferable if Wizards printed cards that were conscious of the taxing problem. The main issue with that right now is that this has been the best argument since 2010. No one has any faith left that this will happen or patience for that matter. This is doubly confounding because they now have a specific venue for printing Eternal legal cards that have no effect on Standard or Modern (Conspiracy, Commander). The fact they have refused to utilize this has been a repeated slap in the face for those of us that believed issues regarding Standard and Modern were the biggest practical barriers to effective printings.

    1. Workshop Itself

    It's an act of extreme generosity that Mishra's Workshop is unrestricted despite being so over the line in every objective metric. The corollary to keeping it around is that more of the toys end up having to be regulated. If there are complaints about a restricted list with Lodestone Golem, Thorn, Revoker, and Chalice, we should wonder "would we rather unrestrict two or three of those and restrict Mishra's Workshops?" I would hope the answer would be no.

    When R&D is designing cards, their goal is "sell as many packs as possible". They absolutely do not have time or motivation to give two poops about Vintage. Maybe they give half a poop on a good day, because they have Grandpa Belcher in the office nowadays, but realistically Standard is their bread and butter, with also a little casual play (Commander, Conspiracy, Un Sets).

    If they were smart though, they would try to do these things. Like when Delve is a huge part of your block, make a delve Shatter. Make a Phyrexian mana Shatter. And so on.

    It's amazing that Green got Delve cards and we didn't get Delvenchant.



  • @cambriel said in Turbo Xerox and Monastery Mentor:

    @nedleeds said in Turbo Xerox and Monastery Mentor:

    VintageGreg, I love you like the intoxicated brother who lives in Detroit I never knew but I can't understand why Zodiac Dragon is the trench you want to die in. Unless you have like 1,000 in your secret stash. I am all for cards to be used as the creator intended, I would have gone to war for Winter Orb for days on end. I think there are just other older cards ahead in the line, most notably Serendib Djinn. How the xerox turned B&R death battle turned power level errata left turn in this thread happened is confusing, maybe we need a "Card that you feel should be restored: Make your case" thread.

    Had to actually go read Serendib Djinn, and yeah I have no idea how they haven't fixed that. It's basically the same thing as The Abyss, and they never bothered to errata that to read sacrifice.

    I guess the fact that a 4 mana Mahamoti isn't playable, plus there being so few copies around means it slipped under the radar. There's not much argument that it's a radical departure from the power of the card as printed.

    alt text

    Again we are way afield, we probably need a 'Cards as Printed Rescue Thread'. Serendib Djinns wording doesn't use the word sacrifice, which is used in Arabian Nights. Notably on Diamond Valley. Additionally the Creator built a (bad) combo in the set with Pyramids. Serendib states "destroy" with respect to the land (twice).

    alt text

    For many years it was a tier D deck in conjunction with Consecrate Land. You got a slight discount on Fat Moti at the steep cost of potentially stone raining yourself every turn or having Armageddon simultaneously Terroring your Djinn.

    Antiquities further hammers this concept home with the many Sacrifice cards in that set. Djinn is clearly intended by the Creator to destroy the land. All hail the Creator.

    This is another case of MTGO programmers being lazy and thus altering the wording on a card when they cludged the various Masters Editions sets together (see Winter Orb).

    alt text



  • @nedleeds I think this is worth its own thread and would love if we could return to "cards as originally printed" instead of "newest version takes over". I want my Rukh Egg dredge deck.



  • @islandswamp said in Turbo Xerox and Monastery Mentor:

    When R&D is designing cards, their goal is "sell as many packs as possible". They absolutely do not have time or motivation to give two poops about Vintage. Maybe they give half a poop on a good day, because they have Grandpa Belcher in the office nowadays, but realistically Standard is their bread and butter, with also a little casual play (Commander, Conspiracy, Un Sets).

    Wizards prints cards specifically for Vintage every now and then.
    Lodestone Golem was one example. They also print cards specific to Legacy + Vintage like Containment Priest, Flusterstorm, and Dack Fayden. Neither the primacy of Standard nor the desire to sell boosters are responsible for their failure to address taxing.



  • Thanks @The-Atog-Lord for a thought provoking piece.

    The thing that struck me most was what @chubbyrain said:

    I would also argue that Gush really isn't weakened relative to the field. It still has incredible synergy with Dack Fayden, JVP, the delve spells, JTMS, Mentor, Pyromancer, Managorger Hydra, Nahiri, etc... You still end up with virtually all Blue decks adopting the same Gush Engine, just with other ways of extracting value from the card rather than a tiny manabase.

    The current state of Vintage reminds of a variant my uncle and I used to play similar to today's Canadian Highlander where each card had a point value. Unlike Canadian Highlander you could play multiples - even Type 1 restricted cards - provided the overall number of points was within the limit.

    As time went and more cards were printed it became impossible to keep the power level of two card combos in check without assigning absurd point values to cards which in isolation did nothing (e.g. Illusions and/or Donate). This meant they couldn't be used in other decks either. The fix was to eventually assign points to two card combos, but it was the beginning of the end of what had been an enjoyable format until then, and I'm determined to give Canadian Highlander a try at some point.

    Now in Vintage there is no cap on the number of restricted cards you can have in your deck (as long as you only have one of each :) ). As long as Wizards continue to print cards that have synergy with the other cards in the Tier 1 decks particularly TX/Shops they will push the power level of these decks up.

    I believe @Smmenen when he says that gush was not a problem pre-Khans. But I think the genie is now out of the bottle. And while it would be nice to restrict pairs of cards (i.e. you can play with only one copy of A & B (X)OR 4 copies of A X(OR) 4 copies of B) that would be simply be a different format that isn't Vintage.

    Eventually synergy becomes "too good" (and I accept some people such as @brianpk80 describe this in a qualitative way and others want to see quantitative hard data based on tournament results to assess this). But if Wizard's agree something needs to be done the only tool which they have available is to restrict one of the cards that fuels the engine (or the win con).

    Unless Wizard's stop printing cards that fuel these engines it seems there is only one place Vintage will end up - an endless string of restrictions. Sadly I don't see this increasing diversity if a deck of singletons is still Tier 1. Though since you'll be playing quasi-highlander maybe gameplay will be a bit more diverse and people will complain less.



  • @smmenen said in Turbo Xerox and Monastery Mentor:

    The Time Vault/ Power Level Errata debates happened a decade ago at this point, and I don't remember the specific findings as they relate to Zodiac Dragon. Perhaps @MaximumCDawg or someone else familiar with those debates might be able to shed light on this question without my having to do further research.

    Oh snap am I late?

    Here's the "article" i wrote about this. I included links to all the major discussions of errata policy I knew of. I think any links you want to find are probably quoted here.

    http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/604177-oracle-text-and-errata-policy-the-qui-bono-school

    EDIT: I didn't cross post this little diatribe over here, but I could if people are interested.



  • @prospero The last time vintage was really balanced, was when Oath & Dredge were the boogeymen of the format. Its time for wotc to start moving the needle back in that direction.


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