SMIP Podcast # 69: Three Months Later AKA The Q2 Metagame



  • @Hydra Ah, well then that isn't an "all-in-one" combo with Protean Hulk and Flash. That is 7 CMC of critters sadly :(.


  • TMD Supporter

    @hierarchnoble said in Cards to unrestrict:

    Sorry to burst everyone's bubble, but Mikaeus also grants +1/+1 in addition to undying. Walking Ballista can't die to state-based effects, you need the sacrifice outlet from the original example to sacrifice the 1/1 Ballista to start the chain and each loop after removing the counter. I never thought an anthem effect could make a card worse.


  • Administrators

    You can still kill with Hulk => Mikaeus the Unhallowed/Walking Ballista if you grab Karmic Guide + Viscera Seer as an intermediary.

    I'm not sure there's much improvement here over the old Body Double+Carrion Feeder=>Reveillark+Mogg Fanatic kill. They both take the same amount of cards, they're both vulnerable to the same removal. Ballista can't get stranded in hand like Reveillark/Double can, but it also can't win through Null Rod or Stony Silence. Either kill can run the same support in terms of Body Snatcher and Benevolent Bodyguard to play around certain game states.

    The Kiki Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Karmic Guide + Viscera Seer kill takes one fewer card, but doesn't kill at instant speed, which can be very relevant in a 4 Flash deck running Pact of Negation

    Amusingly, Galerider Sliver is big boost to the Heart Sliver+Virulent Sliver kill, which has its own drawbacks but suffers the least from drawing it's kill cards.

    Ultimately I wouldn't be surprised if there's some other combo we've missed entirely though ... as no one's been working on Flash kills for some time



  • This post is deleted!

  • Administrators

    @Stormanimagus

    all of the combos I listed were a single resolution of Flash, everything but the Mikaeus combo was successfully used in Vintage when the card was unrestricted.

    At the time Flash was restricted, the most common list would sacrifice Protean Hulk to get Body Double and Carrion Feeder, the Double copies the Hulk, and you sack it to Feeder to get an extra trigger. the second trigger gets Reveillark+Mogg Fanatic. From there you sack Reveillark returning Double, and sack the Double (now a copy of Reveillark), to return itself and Fantatic infinite times for infinite damage.

    If you end up with a combo piece stuck in hand you can get Body Snatcher + Carrion Feeder (+ Benevolent Bodyguard to play around removal) and use the Snatcher to put the stranded card into play. You can also run redundant combo pieces.

    Of course, 4 Brainstorm went a long way toward making sure combo pieces didn't get stuck in hand, and that restriction could represent a significant difference in the way the deck should be built/played.



  • In reference to the comment about unrestricting Library, as a White Eldrazi player I would definitely figure out a way to make this work maindeck. Might not be good. I mean, my goal is to land Mox and uncounterable Thalia turn 1 so playing LOA and pass isn't great. But the potential is there.


  • TMD Supporter

    @stormanimagus said in SMIP Podcast # 69: Three Months Later AKA The Q2 Metagame:

    Why does the flash deck need viscera seer? Like you can just self kill the Ballista by pinging with it?

    Mike Noble answered this question 25 days ago:

    http://www.themanadrain.com/topic/1334/cards-to-unrestrict/69

    In post 68 I posted a theoretical Flash list:

    Theoretical Vintage Flash, 7/13/17
    Stephen Menendian

    40 Spells:

    The combo:
    4 Flash
    4 Protean Hulk
    2 Summoner's Pact
    1 Mikaeus
    1 Walking Ballista
    1 V. Seer
    1 Karmic Guide

    Restricted Cards:
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Ponder
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Gitaxian Probe
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Dig Through Time

    Countermagic:
    4 Force of Will
    4 Mental Misstep
    4 Pact of Negation

    Bounce:
    1 Chain of Vapor

    Search:
    3 Preordain

    20 Mana:

    13 Lands
    5 Moxen
    Lotus
    Lotus Petal

    And in post 56 I went through the combo steps.

    However, I think Brassy is right, that you need a card to deal with a combo part stranded in hand.

    For the record, on the restriction/unrestriction front, here is how I think we came down on this podcast:

    Me:
    Restrict: 2Sphere & Mentor
    Unrestrict: Bargain, and possibly Windfall

    Kevin:
    Restrict: Nothing right now, but if Workshops continues it's current level, restrict Workshop next cycle.
    Unrestrict: Bargain & Library

    I THINK that's where Kevin landed.



  • Why would anyone not play Academy Rector for Yawgmoth's Bargain and Omniscience, if Flash gets unrestricted?


  • TMD Supporter

    @guest said in SMIP Podcast # 69: Three Months Later AKA The Q2 Metagame:

    Why would anyone not play Academy Rector for Yawgmoth's Bargain and Omniscience, if Flash gets unrestricted?

    It depends on if there is a Rector-Flash win condition that makes it more appealing than Hulk-Flash, which is already a win condition.



  • @hierarchnoble First flash gets bargain, second flash/show and tell gets Omniscience, and then you're playing Yugioh. "Blue Eyes, white Aeon's Torn, Go!"


  • TMD Supporter

    I'm almost done this episode, and I've really enjoyed it despite the subject matter. Everyone has a list, a wish for a format where "their" deck(s) are playable, and it's incredibly hard for most players to be objective about their analysis. It's especially difficult to slog through when the loudest players lack data analysis skills, rules knowledge, or sometimes even any history of actually playing. I myself have fallen victim to severe misinformation about how Old School works, and gotten angry when that resulted in muddled and contradictory information. I know what it's like to be wrong and lash out instead of cooling down and learning, and I wish others would also take the time to learn before expressing an opinion. My wish, whether I'm an Any Given Weekend player or just borrowing the most recent 4-0 hatebear deck because Top Deck Games is having a Mox event, is for the format to survive. And you, Steve and Kevin, are showcasing an intent to save the format. Thank you.


  • TMD Supporter

    @hierarchnoble said in SMIP Podcast # 69: Three Months Later AKA The Q2 Metagame:

    I'm almost done this episode, and I've really enjoyed it despite the subject matter. Everyone has a list, a wish for a format where "their" deck(s) are playable, and it's incredibly hard for most players to be objective about their analysis. It's especially difficult to slog through when the loudest players lack data analysis skills, rules knowledge, or sometimes even any history of actually playing. I myself have fallen victim to severe misinformation about how Old School works, and gotten angry when that resulted in muddled and contradictory information. I know what it's like to be wrong and lash out instead of cooling down and learning, and I wish others would also take the time to learn before expressing an opinion.

    Can you unpack this? I'm curious what misinformation about Old School you encountered and how it misled you.

    Thanks for the kind words. This is a particularly difficult podcast to execute, let alone put together, because the data doesn't lend itself to an audio format, but I thought Kevin and I pulled it off.



  • @smmenen This question might sound pointed, though really don't mean it to. But do you all test at all in preparation for discussions about B/R lists. A deck with 4 Libraries? A Flash deck? A Bargain deck?

    If so, what do those look like. If not, why not? I understand we can't prove a negative. But we could potentially just prove brokenness, and at the least we could get an idea of the experience of playing with or against certain hypothetical decks...


  • TMD Supporter

    I've definitely tested "banned" decks before. I even wrote multiple articles on this subject during my 8 year SCG tenure. Since I am only proposing to unrestrict Bargain, I didn't test it for reasons covered here.



  • Unrestrict Ancestral Recall....aaaaand discuss!

    eats popcorn



  • I'm just gonna say again. Unrestriction of windfall is a terrible idea.

    Build an old school style academy deck, put 4 leyline on anticipation 4 days undoing and 4 serum powered in the side. Win literally every post SB game on turn 0-1 against non blue decks.

    By the way really enjoyed the episode



  • @walking.dude maybe this is just my interpretation, but I thought the idea of the conversation was that maybe the format needed something unrestricted that was a bit broken, so that at least there was something not shops, not mentor, that was an option; same idea with the Flash unrestriction, but maybe that was just how I digested the information. while that might lead to some rock/paper/scissors match-ups, it may be better than the 2-deck format that everyone is talking about on trying to solve...

    I really enjoy these podcasts; i currently subscribe to 12 podcasts, 3 or 4 are magic related, and this is the one I look forward to the most. Great job as always Steve & Kevin!



  • @smmenen Well if you guys are ever looking for content (though this doesn't seem to be a limiting factor for ya'll), I would love to see, hear, hear about that sort of testing.


  • TMD Supporter

    @walking-dude said in SMIP Podcast # 69: Three Months Later AKA The Q2 Metagame:

    I'm just gonna say again. Unrestriction of windfall is a terrible idea.

    Build an old school style academy deck, put 4 leyline on anticipation 4 days undoing and 4 serum powered in the side. Win literally every post SB game on turn 0-1 against non blue decks.

    I haven't tested unrestricted Windfall, but I don't think that's remotely true.

    To fire off Turn 1 Windfall, you generally need three separate mana sources. The exceptions are Mana Crypt and Black Lotus. But even Sol Ring, Mana Vault, and Dark Ritual usually need a separate source to get started, and you'll need a blue source on top of that.

    So, even if you built a deck with 4 Opal, 4 Chrome Mox, 4 Rituals, some number of Spirit Guides and all of the restricted mana, and you have Windfall in your opening hand, that's not close to 100% Turn 1 Windfall. If you could do that, then Day's Undoing would be a much better card, and it's not. Even then, how much better is that than Paradoxical Outcome or Belcher? Not much, probably, because it's symmetrical.

    And, even if you can do that, you still have fundamental problems:

    1. The opponent can draw Force/Misstep/MBT - even Shop players can run MBT

    2. Leyline and Serum Powder take up space, making it less likely you can resolve early Windfall.

    3. If your opponent mulligans a few times, the Windfall is much worse. It's not that rare to have an opponent mulligan to 5 or 6, which makes Windfall that much worse. That's why it's not a true draw7.

    I think one reason Windfall is a potentially attractive unrestriction is because it's synergy with Hurkyl's Recall makes it a potentially very strong anti-Shop tactic. Shops are the biggest monster in the format right now.


  • TMD Supporter

    @smmenen said in SMIP Podcast # 69: Three Months Later AKA The Q2 Metagame:

    I think one reason Windfall is a potentially attractive unrestriction is because it's synergy with Hurkyl's Recall makes it a potentially very strong anti-Shop tactic. Shops are the biggest monster in the format right now.

    I don't buy that. It's a 6+ mana combo that most likely ends with you passing the turn to an opponent who has 7+ cards in hand and mana already in play.


Log in to reply
 

WAF/WHF

Looks like your connection to The Mana Drain was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.