Can you ever 'Jund them out'? (Decklist)
@Sovarius It feels like you and I might be on the same track. Please see my homebrew list and tell me what you think. I just posted. In testing, I found that Oath of Nissa (I know... it sounds insane) was actually great in the Excavator + Wasteland plan. I'm not sure about your list, but it feels like it might work out ok given 33 lands+creatures? I like the Confidant idea. And Teeg, he might just be going in my build, I totally forgot him.
-3 Grim flayer
Seems like a lot of damage off Dark Confidant then, no? With no filtering. Nine at 3cmc, 2 ingot chewers and a Snuff Out.
Are you testing this at all?
Your list seems highly dependant on flayer damage. I'm not liking that one bit. I keep wanting blue instead of red in this deck. That would take you to Leovold instead of Flayer and better ways of "filtering " for Bob. It's difficult to change one or two cards without changing the majority of the list and how it works.
I personally love and have tested Grim Flayer a lot. His synergies with Bob and Ramanup are soooooo good. And with 4 Oath of Nissa it is not hard to reach Delirium at all. I would run 1-2 Sylvan Libraries as well personally as they synergize well with Bob, Grim, and just drawing clutch cards when needed as well. Not to mention it fuels delirium and cant be derpstepped.
@topical_island In Legacy, I found Oath of Nissa to be an absolutely insane card. It also opens up your sideboard really wide, with both Domri Rade and Ashiok along with making LotV much smoother. I absolutely loved playing Oath and would recommend it for others - the high likelihood of replacement helps you fight in the same card advantage axis instead of mostly ceding the battlefield and I always find Jund to be a type of tapout control decks, so getting another land isn't normally a bad thing. Oh, and multiple copies just feed the Tarmogoyf or some other delve spell you may eventually play.
@boxian Thanks for the tip. I've been interested in the card for a long time, but this is the first deck I've ever tested it in. I kinda threw 1 copy in at first just for giggles and woah, it was really good at assembling Wasteland and Excavator. Have you ever run it or seen it run with Flickerwisp or anything like that. I'm kinda just curious about exploiting it as a permanent and not just the sorcery that we all know it to actually be. (I keep thinking... hmmm Stax? Nope not really... Paradoxical?... Nope not really... Braids?... Nope, doesn't work at all.)
Would really like to test if i have to proxy it up. I have many things taking time in my life besides magic like anyone else.
Your list seems highly dependant on flayer damage. I keep wanting blue instead of red in this deck.
Hmm, i don't think the point is to always have Flayer, just that it will help smooth draws for the Confidant 'engine'. I think i would remove both of those cards before removing only Flayer? Or overall just streamline the curve.
And i mean Leovold is a great card, but the point is to play the color red for the meta-hate cards. I would agree changing a few cards can easily change the deck entirely.
Oath of NIssa does seem really strong, i could test that as well when i can put this together. It sounds interesting.
@topical_island i hadn't run it with any flicker effects, but that would be fun. i would be hesitant to go into another color though (outside of planeswalkers), but it may not make sense to force jund in vintage in the first place.
@boxian I've been testing Flicker in the other deck. It's really just ok. In spots its great, but those spots seem too few. (Synergy with Oath of Nissa, Manglehorn, and to a lesser extent with Ravager... and good against opposing Balistas, Ravagers, and the odd planeswalker reset and then attack and kill)
If someone was running white anyways, I would suggest it as a potential deep tech SB card against Ravager Shops, but probably wouldn't run it myself, and probably not over Eldrazi Displacer, which seems to compete for the same spot?
@topical_island it may not make sense to force jund in vintage in the first place.
It probably doesn't, i was thinking with roughly 70% of the field being one of two decks (thought they are polar opposites) maybe there could be some real room for a meta-deck.
I once saw a tech between Sylvan Library and Death's Shadow. Library is fine with Bob flips, and more ca is always nice. What I am unsure about, is that I don't think Shadow is good against Precursor Golems, and even worse against a Mentor.
Library and Confidant are okay together, but i feel Confidant is just risky in a Shadow deck, because you want to control your life loss.
Shadow doesn't seem against precursors, and especially not against multiple swords and multiple missteps.
Something about this list seems off to me. Maybe it's all the discard spells in it. Those seem especially bad in vintage at such a high number. I think 2 thoughtseize main and 2 board is enough. They get very bad in the late game and they aren't even great in the early game. This is not modern where you are taking away their first and ONLY play. This is vintage where if you take away a powerful line, they still have a second powerful line to take. And then you keep drawing worthless cards in the long run.
I'd rather see more impactful creatures in the list than discard cards. Unfortunately, that probably means, and as much as I love Grim Flayer, that Grim Flayer becomes unplayable in the list because you will have one less archetype in the yard.
I like manglehorn, confidant, deathrite shaman. I like flametongue Kavu or some other creature removal/creature hybrid.
Jund wins because of two for 1s. I don't see a lot of value cards in this list. Mostly 1 for 1.
You also get access to rootmaze to stop paradoxical outcome lists.
Oh yeah and Liliana of the Viel is unplayable in Vintage. It does nothing vs 90% of the field.
If you can find a way to get more ramp cards, mind twist becomes viable. I don't know if that means playing mana crypt and off color moxen or lotus petal or spirit guides. But I think the key to this deck becoming success hinges on Mind twist's inclusion and being able to cast it for 3-5 on turn 2.
Green suns zenith and dryad arbor aren't playable in vintage either. GSZ is just a bad card. You are always overpaying 1 mana for whatever creature you are trying to get. The versatility of it is punished in Vintage especially because 1) it's a spell and more cards effect spells than creatures 2) tax effects exist.
So cut the green suns, Liliana's, bad discard spells, grim flayers, garbage green sun tutor cards like dryad arbor and gaddock teeg.
Add ramp, fastbond, more wasteland effects, mind twist, and probably play the 4 of the walking crucible dude, and some number of flametongue kavu. You could even just play crucible of worlds on top of the creature copy too. I really like that idea, along with fastbond and Mind Twist.
See what I did there. I took out fair (often terrible cards) and added in a bunch of powerful ones.