Reverting cards to original functionality



  • @wintage said in Reverting cards to original functionality:

    It is both funny and sad that they had to errata a card that has been printed as late as in 2013. I guess there are too many combos if you could just activate an ability infinite times? But what about the En-Kor then?

    Typos happen. Slither Blade's flavor text, The Monarch token, M13's Wit's End's flavor text. When it impact's the game rules is when we generate ongoing discussion.

    EDIT: Add Walking Archive to my list of functional changes a la Zodiac Dragon. It isn't printed as an Artifact Creature. Same with Wall of Junk having defender, since it was never printed with creature type Wall.



  • My favorite discussion from the old Mana Drain was Lotus Vale:

    As printed, you can respond to the comes into play trigger by tapping it for 3 mana. It's an uncounterable once-per-turn Black Lotus. It is errata'd as follows:

    If Lotus Vale would enter the battlefield, sacrifice two untapped lands instead. If you do, put Lotus Vale onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard.

    {T}: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool.



  • All the Wishes.



  • @topical_island said in Reverting cards to original functionality:

    All the Wishes.

    Coax from the Blind Eternities recently reiterated that they are working as printed. This would be errata in the other direction than the Zodiac Dragon-style group of cards.



  • @topical_island said in Reverting cards to original functionality:

    All the Wishes.

    Worth noting that the 18 July 2016 MTR update changed how Wishes work when controlling an opponent or their spells:

    If a player gains control of another player, he or she may not look at that player’s sideboard, nor may he or she have that player access his or her sideboard.



  • Does this mean abeyance is a strictly better time walk? Likely not, but I do think some cards should be fixed for functionality. Ali From Cairo, Library, Bazaar are obviously legendary from a flavor perspective but did the designers have the legendary idea in mind prior to legends? You say it's impossible to ask, but I don't think it is. The problem is likely more of their views on the functionality changing. When relic bind was printed, the untap symbol did not exist. same with voltaic key......
    In 1996 I showed up at a tournament feeding final fortune turns into the unrestricted but heavily erratted time vault.
    I have always had a hard time with howling mine and winter orb getting shut off when tapped but not other continuous artifacts like black vice.



  • @hierarchnoble @thecravenone In 2002 I could pitch Ancestral to Force then get it back with Cunning Wish... Now I can't. And that is, profoundly lame. Especially given what those cards actually say.



  • @elusive said in Reverting cards to original functionality:

    Does this mean abeyance is a strictly better time walk? Likely not, but I do think some cards should be fixed for functionality. Ali From Cairo, Library, Bazaar are obviously legendary from a flavor perspective but did the designers have the legendary idea in mind prior to legends? You say it's impossible to ask, but I don't think it is. The problem is likely more of their views on the functionality changing. When relic bind was printed, the untap symbol did not exist. same with voltaic key......
    In 1996 I showed up at a tournament feeding final fortune turns into the unrestricted but heavily erratted time vault.
    I have always had a hard time with howling mine and winter orb getting shut off when tapped but not other continuous artifacts like black vice.

    Some cards are harder to judge than others as they were printed within a different ruleset. I would have to do research on Abeyance, but iirc it was only able to timewalk people for a few months. I guess cards like this and Lotus Vale need to have some kind of errata because they can't be reprinted.

    I don't buy the argument with Arabian Nights cards - judging by flavor, Valakut the Molten Pinnacle should be legendary and it was printed "recently" - there is just no objective here.

    You don't think it is impossible to reach out to people who designed cards in 93 or something and then never had to with anything? Good luck.



  • @thecravenone said in Reverting cards to original functionality:

    My favorite discussion from the old Mana Drain was Lotus Vale:

    As printed, you can respond to the comes into play trigger by tapping it for 3 mana. It's an uncounterable once-per-turn Black Lotus. It is errata'd as follows:

    If Lotus Vale would enter the battlefield, sacrifice two untapped lands instead. If you do, put Lotus Vale onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard.

    {T}: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool.

    Lotus Vale works exactly the same now as it did when printed. This was a time when costs had to be paid before abilities were used. So, Lotus Vale was not a one shot lotus when it was printed either. The current wording retains original functionality.



  • Cunning wish rules question (based on the old rules)....if I imprinted brainstorm on my chrome mox, and then Cunning wished for said brainstorm, is my mox turned off?

    PS the wishes should 1000% be returned to their previous state to at least allow pulling cards from Exile. Delve be damned.



  • Something that was a common tournament winning play in the early ninties was to transmute artifact for a Su-Chi and decline to pay the difference in converted mana cost in order to get Su-Chi's trigger. There is a thread on archive.themanadrain.com which ends with someone stating that they will petition wizards to take a look at restoring the card to it's original functionality but thus far nothing has been reported. I would be in favor of restoring the original functionality of Transmute Artifact. It does create potential problems in a way similar to Flash but it was the intended usage of the card.
    http://www.archive.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=41319.0
    I was reminded of this interaction by Steve's article here:
    http://themanadrain.com/topic/690/old-school-magic-new-strategies-for-the-old-school-transmute-artifact
    Also worth mentioning is that the card is very different today than it's original intended functionality:
    http://www.archive.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=41420.0
    This is a power level errata if ever I saw one. Wizards of the Coast has publicly stated that power level errata are against their policy.



  • @the-atog-lord said in Reverting cards to original functionality:

    Lotus Vale works exactly the same now as it did when printed. This was a time when costs had to be paid before abilities were used. So, Lotus Vale was not a one shot lotus when it was printed either. The current wording retains original functionality.

    I suppose there may be another discussion to be had about original functionality vs printed text under current rules.


  • TMD Supporter

    Transmute into sundering titan is the bigger issue there i would think. nice one-sided armageddon you have there.



  • @thecravenone I guess... I've heard the whole Lotus Vale thing for years. But I'm not sure how interesting a discussion about errataing away the original functionality into something super broken would actually be...



  • @garbageaggro Yes, that's precisely what I was alluding to with the Flash reference. It appears to be a power level errata which is against their publicly stated policy.



  • @topical_island said in Reverting cards to original functionality:

    @hierarchnoble @thecravenone In 2002 I could pitch Ancestral to Force then get it back with Cunning Wish... Now I can't. And that is, profoundly lame. Especially given what those cards actually say.

    I'm disappointed with how Burning Wish is worded these days, but I imagine the updated functionality is partially why it was unrestricted.



  • @hierarchnoble That's fair... though given how little play it sees. I don't know that A. errataing it back to the original would do anything broken... or even B. that if the errata happened and it got restricted again, that would do anything either... except making all Wishes make more sense and be more playable.



  • Burning Wish was never the problem, Lions Eye Diamond was. Anyways I would like to see Serendib Djinn to do what it says and I want Chaos Orb to read "1, tap, Sacrifice Chaos Orb: Flip a coin, call it in the air. If you win the flip, destroy target permanent" and allow it as a 4 of. If people can take infinite turns for 3 colorless, I should have a 50/50 chance of destroying 1 permanent for 3 colorless.



  • @serracollector Agreed, Serendib Djinn has similar wording to Drop of Honey which has thankfully been un-errata'd to almost go back to doing what it always did. Drop of Honey should still be destroyed instead of sacrificed when there are no creatures to remove any confusion people might have when making it indestructible doesn't work because of some arbitrary and unnecessary errata. Only because "discarded" translates to "destroyed" in all other contexts.

    As has been pointed out in another thread the Djinn was originally intended to function with two cards that make lands indestructible and has historically been used in conjunction with at least one of them (Consecrate Land) in competitive play. The Keyword sacrifice was already properly templated when Arabian Nights was printed which means it was intentionally not used in that card's text so current errata does not reflect the originally intended purpose of the card. The only ambiguities in that set regarding destroy effects are related to the words "discard" and "discarded" which, as far as I can tell, have been updated to "destroy" and "destroyed" in all other contexts.

    There is also the issue of the few cards with the pseudo Islandhome mechanic which, again, has been replaced with sacrifice instead of destroy. The issue there is that these cards haven't been errata'd to use the Islandhome mechanic so there is no reason for them to have the change of wording to comply with the templating for a mechanic that barely even really exists anymore. Even the most recent printing of Island Fish Jasconius uses the keyword "bury" which translates to "destroy without possibility of regeneration" in every other context. Diamond Valley and Metamorphosis both use the term "sacrifice" so there is a distinction which is visible on the cards themselves in every possible context.

    There's absolutely no reason for any of the affected Arabian Nights cards to do anything other than what is printed on them anymore. Once upon a time there was I'm sure but the modern rules properly accommodate the wording of almost every card in Arabian Nights today. Some of them have been updated to work as they are printed and others have not been. There doesn't appear to be any reason for this discrepancy that I can see except maybe laziness which is to say that they just overlooked it and it's all just an accident.

    With the advent of Old School it makes a lot of sense for Wizards of the Coast to restore the original function of as many of these cards as they can.



  • @p3temangus said in Reverting cards to original functionality:

    Cunning wish rules question (based on the old rules)....if I imprinted brainstorm on my chrome mox, and then Cunning wished for said brainstorm, is my mox turned off?

    PS the wishes should 1000% be returned to their previous state to at least allow pulling cards from Exile. Delve be damned.

    Yes, the mox is turned off. Imprint requires the imprinted card to still be exiled to function.
    And yes, wishes 1000% should be returned to their previous state with regards to the exile zone.


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