Reverting cards to original functionality



  • Burning Wish was never the problem, Lions Eye Diamond was. Anyways I would like to see Serendib Djinn to do what it says and I want Chaos Orb to read "1, tap, Sacrifice Chaos Orb: Flip a coin, call it in the air. If you win the flip, destroy target permanent" and allow it as a 4 of. If people can take infinite turns for 3 colorless, I should have a 50/50 chance of destroying 1 permanent for 3 colorless.



  • @serracollector Agreed, Serendib Djinn has similar wording to Drop of Honey which has thankfully been un-errata'd to almost go back to doing what it always did. Drop of Honey should still be destroyed instead of sacrificed when there are no creatures to remove any confusion people might have when making it indestructible doesn't work because of some arbitrary and unnecessary errata. Only because "discarded" translates to "destroyed" in all other contexts.

    As has been pointed out in another thread the Djinn was originally intended to function with two cards that make lands indestructible and has historically been used in conjunction with at least one of them (Consecrate Land) in competitive play. The Keyword sacrifice was already properly templated when Arabian Nights was printed which means it was intentionally not used in that card's text so current errata does not reflect the originally intended purpose of the card. The only ambiguities in that set regarding destroy effects are related to the words "discard" and "discarded" which, as far as I can tell, have been updated to "destroy" and "destroyed" in all other contexts.

    There is also the issue of the few cards with the pseudo Islandhome mechanic which, again, has been replaced with sacrifice instead of destroy. The issue there is that these cards haven't been errata'd to use the Islandhome mechanic so there is no reason for them to have the change of wording to comply with the templating for a mechanic that barely even really exists anymore. Even the most recent printing of Island Fish Jasconius uses the keyword "bury" which translates to "destroy without possibility of regeneration" in every other context. Diamond Valley and Metamorphosis both use the term "sacrifice" so there is a distinction which is visible on the cards themselves in every possible context.

    There's absolutely no reason for any of the affected Arabian Nights cards to do anything other than what is printed on them anymore. Once upon a time there was I'm sure but the modern rules properly accommodate the wording of almost every card in Arabian Nights today. Some of them have been updated to work as they are printed and others have not been. There doesn't appear to be any reason for this discrepancy that I can see except maybe laziness which is to say that they just overlooked it and it's all just an accident.

    With the advent of Old School it makes a lot of sense for Wizards of the Coast to restore the original function of as many of these cards as they can.



  • @p3temangus said in Reverting cards to original functionality:

    Cunning wish rules question (based on the old rules)....if I imprinted brainstorm on my chrome mox, and then Cunning wished for said brainstorm, is my mox turned off?

    PS the wishes should 1000% be returned to their previous state to at least allow pulling cards from Exile. Delve be damned.

    Yes, the mox is turned off. Imprint requires the imprinted card to still be exiled to function.
    And yes, wishes 1000% should be returned to their previous state with regards to the exile zone.



  • To make everyone feel old, the Wishes have existed in their current form longer than their prior form by nearly a year.



  • @khahan said in Reverting cards to original functionality:

    @p3temangus said in Reverting cards to original functionality:

    Cunning wish rules question (based on the old rules)....if I imprinted brainstorm on my chrome mox, and then Cunning wished for said brainstorm, is my mox turned off?

    PS the wishes should 1000% be returned to their previous state to at least allow pulling cards from Exile. Delve be damned.

    Yes, the mox is turned off. Imprint requires the imprinted card to still be exiled to function.
    And yes, wishes 1000% should be returned to their previous state with regards to the exile zone.

    Source?

    Imprint is no longer in the rules and the Oracle text doesn't add this requirement.

    Imprint: "Imprint" used to be a keyword ability. It is now an ability word and has no rules meaning. All cards printed with the imprint keyword have received errata in the Oracle card reference.

    Imprint — When Chrome Mox enters the battlefield, you may exile a nonartifact, nonland card from your hand.
    Tap: Add one mana of any of the exiled card's colors to your mana pool.

    Am I misunderstanding the part "the exiled card" - is it "the card which is currently exiled" as opposed to "the card which was exiled" ?



  • @thecravenone said in Reverting cards to original functionality:

    @khahan said in Reverting cards to original functionality:

    @p3temangus said in Reverting cards to original functionality:

    Cunning wish rules question (based on the old rules)....if I imprinted brainstorm on my chrome mox, and then Cunning wished for said brainstorm, is my mox turned off?

    PS the wishes should 1000% be returned to their previous state to at least allow pulling cards from Exile. Delve be damned.

    Yes, the mox is turned off. Imprint requires the imprinted card to still be exiled to function.
    And yes, wishes 1000% should be returned to their previous state with regards to the exile zone.

    Source?

    Imprint is no longer in the rules and the Oracle text doesn't add this requirement.

    Imprint: "Imprint" used to be a keyword ability. It is now an ability word and has no rules meaning. All cards printed with the imprint keyword have received errata in the Oracle card reference.

    Imprint — When Chrome Mox enters the battlefield, you may exile a nonartifact, nonland card from your hand.
    Tap: Add one mana of any of the exiled card's colors to your mana pool.

    Am I misunderstanding the part "the exiled card" - is it "the card which is currently exiled" as opposed to "the card which was exiled" ?

    From Isochron Scepter rulings:
    6/8/2016 If the imprinted card leaves the exile zone while the activated ability is on the stack, the copy can’t be made

    For the second part of your question either way you read it (the exiled card vs the card which is currently exiled) you get the same result. The exiled card is only 'the' exiled card as long as it doesn't change zones. Once the exiled card changes zones isochron scepter or chrome mox or panoptic mirror or any other card with imprint would lose track of it and it would not longer be considered the same card for purposes of the imprint ability.



  • @hierarchnoble

    I do feel old. But wishes should be restored to original functionality.


  • TMD Supporter

    @aaron-patten said in Reverting cards to original functionality:

    Something that was a common tournament winning play in the early ninties was to transmute artifact for a Su-Chi and decline to pay the difference in converted mana cost in order to get Su-Chi's trigger. There is a thread on archive.themanadrain.com which ends with someone stating that they will petition wizards to take a look at restoring the card to it's original functionality but thus far nothing has been reported. I would be in favor of restoring the original functionality of Transmute Artifact. It does create potential problems in a way similar to Flash but it was the intended usage of the card.
    http://www.archive.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=41319.0
    I was reminded of this interaction by Steve's article here:
    http://themanadrain.com/topic/690/old-school-magic-new-strategies-for-the-old-school-transmute-artifact
    Also worth mentioning is that the card is very different today than it's original intended functionality:
    http://www.archive.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=41420.0
    This is a power level errata if ever I saw one. Wizards of the Coast has publicly stated that power level errata are against their policy.

    I wrote at length about Transmute here: http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-scars-of-mirrodin-vintage-set-review/

    alt text

    My complete analysis is available at the end of the set review.



  • @hierarchnoble Also, my knee aches right before it rains.



  • @smmenen Thanks for posting that here. Somehow I had managed to miss that article.

    Edit: Maybe our new rules manager will be more reasonable/better able to make changes to fix this and other old school cards:
    http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/eldritch-moon-update-bulletin-2016-07-28
    http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/160584323438/your-faq-still-lists-tabak-as-rules-manager



  • @the-atog-lord

    I think part of this discussion is as whether cards "should retain their original functionality" or "their original text". A lot of cards dont have their original functionality due to damage on the stack, mana burn, and other rules being erased. It seems like those rule changes can only ever hurt a card though since they fall back to errata.

    Rukh Egg is a game changer for Dredge if it returns to original text. Unaffected by all hate outside of Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void, and Planar Void. Its errata was almost necessary at the time, but now there are highly efficient answers in the form of these GY hate as well as anti-token cards, like Engineered Explosives and Echoing Truth.

    In general, with this rule change I dont think there are any cards more broken than Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Black Lotus, and the rest of the restricted list. However, it would provide the format with a large array of new and interesting cards to play and build around.


  • TMD Supporter

    The OP and subject title of the thread is "original functionality," not "printed text."

    For the record, I absolutely oppose any attempt to make cards work "according to their text," without reference to a card's design intent or original ruled functionality, both as a matter of principle and as a practical matter.

    I've expounded much more extensively about this elsewhere, but trying to get cards to work according to their printed text is an absolute impossibility, both because text is sometimes ambiguous, and, more importantly, because of rules changes that make text obsolete or vestigial. There is no such thing as interrupts any more to take but one example.

    Pragmatically, we don't need or want Lotus Vale, etc. to work as the text suggests. That would be terrible for this format.

    The idea of getting cards to work like they originally worked, and to remove power level errata is a worthy pursuit.

    The goal of getting cards to work like their text suggests, irrespective of original ruled functionality or design intent, is a fool's errand, and Quixotic, at best.



  • "Original functionality" in the current rules set up would mean that a lot of old artifacts should have the clause "if untapped" before their text. It means a card like Rukh Egg and becomes playable again. As well as Lion's Eye Diamond becoming much better. There is a long list of power level errata on the mothership: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/power-level-errata-b-gone-2006-07-14

    What really gets me is the 2nd half of this article. Where they start talkimg about "intent". The reality is very few cards in Vintage are seeing play for their "intended" usage. Just to name a few: The Dredge mechanic, Time Vault+Key, Oath+Orchard, ect. We weren't intended to make broken combos with these cards. "Intent" was the original justification for making a power level errata on Time Vault (turning it virtually unplayable). Most of these errata have been done away with except for a few. The article even notes that Lotus Vale and Mox Diamond are 2 of these such cards (Phryexian Dreadnaught is listed in the same category and thats been errata'ed back!).


  • TMD Supporter

    @vaughnbros said in Reverting cards to original functionality:

    "Original functionality" in the current rules set up would mean that a lot of old artifacts should have the clause "if untapped" before their text.

    But when Rich and I talked about "removing power level errata," we weren't talking about restoring all cards to their original functionality. For cards like Power Sink that would be almost impossible, since Interrupts no longer exist, and no one was proposing special errata to former interrupts as a class. You did not used to be able to respond to a Power Sink by casting instants. Obviously, you can now. We weren't trying to change that.

    What we were talking about was a very specific subset of cards that had received errata for power level reasons. Thus, to my knowledge, no one has ever proposed restoring all cards to their original ruled functionality through every rules change. Rather, the crusade to get Time Vault fixed, et al, was about reversing specific instances of errata that were issued in the past with the specific purpose of weakening particular cards from how they were designed to work, not as a byproduct of rules changes.

    In any case, a few years after the power level errata review and clean up, with the M10 rules changes, Wizards announced that they would no longer try to maintain original ruled functionality through rules changes, and thus Wishes lost much of their original functionality.

    Again, this was not because of specific power level errata, but a byproduct of rules changes.

    This is a complicated subject, and I'd recommend the podcast episode I linked above for folks trying to get grounded in it. The concepts are subtle, and the history is complicated. But there are critical distinctions here that are easy to miss.

    ORF is not the same thing as "intent" whatever that might mean, nor is it the same thing as printed text. Those are three distinct concepts described in more places elsewhere.



  • @vaughnbros Thanks for the link. It was quite informative and I understand most of the arguments given, even though it makes me very sad to see that my assumption about Relic Bind is true :(

    @Smmenen I really like your articles and luckily there are plenty off them. Do you have some kind of library where all your articles are stored?

    Something different that I stumbled upon is the weird inconsistency in wording of destroy/ discard/ sacrifice/ place in graveyard in the early sets. Even the card Sacrifice itself stats in ABU "destroy". The only card in Arabian Nights to use the instance of sacrifice is Diamond Valley, but then it got plenty of use in Antiquities again.



  • Zodiac Dragon and Serendib Djinn should both be changed back to the more powerful versions. I've reached out to the Portal 3 designer and D'Angelo (the former judge who's random ruling on Zodiac Dragon is the only reason it is the way it currently is) on linked in. So far I have heard nothing back.

    I plan on posting a thread on Zodiac Dragon when I have the most information possible and a clearly outlines argument for why it should be a vintage relevant card.



  • @gkraigher
    I was doing some research on Zodiac Dragon, because at first I thought that the rules change would make it useless anyway, but for the Serra Avatar reprint they did actually change the wording to refer to "anywhere" - considering that both Serra Avatar and Zodiac Dragon came to existence at the same point in time I now agree that this is bogus powerlevel errata. It's an obscure and expensive card, give it some joy. If it breaks anything, it can always be banned or restricted... as very few people actually own a copy, no one would care.



  • @wintage said in Reverting cards to original functionality:

    considering that both Serra Avatar and Zodiac Dragon came to existence at the same point in time

    To make it even more ridiculous, Serra Avatar actually predates Zodiac Dragon by seven months. (Saga = October 98; P3K = May 99)



  • @gkraigher I think Smemmen and I both gave pretty solid arguments and laid a good foundation in the other thread we had this discussion on why Zodiac Dragon should not be changed. However even I have to admit that its not as cut and dry of an issue as I thought it was.

    I wouldn't think of using Serra Avatar as a comparison because as we noted, there were different rules and different terms used for Portal than for regular magic. However there are other cards with similar wording within Portal sets that received no errata. I still think it works today as they originally intended, but I'll be curious to see if you can get any answers from people who were actually involved in the early stages of the card - you know the people who would know better than me. ;)

    Good luck in your crusade. This is one case where I kind of hope to be proven wrong.



  • I'll paste my thoughts on Serendib Djinn from the other thread here.

    @nedleeds said in Turbo Xerox and Monastery Mentor:

    @cambriel said in Turbo Xerox and Monastery Mentor:

    @nedleeds said in Turbo Xerox and Monastery Mentor:

    VintageGreg, I love you like the intoxicated brother who lives in Detroit I never knew but I can't understand why Zodiac Dragon is the trench you want to die in. Unless you have like 1,000 in your secret stash. I am all for cards to be used as the creator intended, I would have gone to war for Winter Orb for days on end. I think there are just other older cards ahead in the line, most notably Serendib Djinn. How the xerox turned B&R death battle turned power level errata left turn in this thread happened is confusing, maybe we need a "Card that you feel should be restored: Make your case" thread.

    Had to actually go read Serendib Djinn, and yeah I have no idea how they haven't fixed that. It's basically the same thing as The Abyss, and they never bothered to errata that to read sacrifice.

    I guess the fact that a 4 mana Mahamoti isn't playable, plus there being so few copies around means it slipped under the radar. There's not much argument that it's a radical departure from the power of the card as printed.

    alt text

    Again we are way afield, we probably need a 'Cards as Printed Rescue Thread'. Serendib Djinns wording doesn't use the word sacrifice, which is used in Arabian Nights. Notably on Diamond Valley. Additionally the Creator built a (bad) combo in the set with Pyramids. Serendib states "destroy" with respect to the land (twice).

    alt text

    For many years it was a tier D deck in conjunction with Consecrate Land. You got a slight discount on Fat Moti at the steep cost of potentially stone raining yourself every turn or having Armageddon simultaneously Terroring your Djinn.

    Antiquities further hammers this concept home with the many Sacrifice cards in that set. Djinn is clearly intended by the Creator to destroy the land. All hail the Creator.

    This is another case of MTGO programmers being lazy and thus altering the wording on a card when they cludged the various Masters Editions sets together (see Winter Orb).

    alt text


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