August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement



  • @apollogod Solitaire is a challenging one-person game too.



  • @chubbyrain the hilarious part is most of them are garbage in standard.



  • @ribby said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:

    @apollogod Solitaire is a challenging one-person game too.

    Your disdain for combo decks is well documented. Thankfully not everyone feels the same way. I am excited for Bargain being unrestricted and will be playing Vintage again.

    To address your earlier point, I do find it more fun to be killed by someone drawing 19 cards and comboing me out than being swung to death by idiotic humans whose text say "you cannot do x". Then again, I feel your question is somewhat rhetorical, but sometimes these things don't translate well over the web.



  • I'm happy for this announcement but kind of hoped for sphere not amethyst to be hit. Also, derp-islands should be restricted, they're format warping.



  • @hrishi I don't think Bargain will be that great, but I'm glad it'll bring you back. I don't think the risk is worth the reward, but that's just me.

    Maybe this is a next-level unrestriction where the powers that be are betting that Bargain is actually terrible and thus doesn't destroy Vintage, but are still looking to pick up all the hardcore combo players.

    PS you really like just sitting there doing nothing while your opponent is playing Solitaire with their whole deck? Why? What satisfaction do you get out of that? I hardly believe it.



  • The thing about Bargain is we've have Griselbrand for years and Griselbrand is way easier to cheat into play than a Bargain.

    I'm honestly curious why we've never seen a Reanimator deck tip over in vintage. It's a tier 1 deck in Legacy. The only thing I can think of is Misstep.... But if you play your own Missteps, you'd think the power level of Reanimator would be enough for it to break open.



  • @ribby said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:

    PS you really like just sitting there doing nothing while your opponent is playing Solitaire with their whole deck? Why? What satisfaction do you get out of that? I hardly believe it.

    How is that any better than being swung at by Humans with binary functions designed to shut down specific aspects of decks? There is no-outplay potential here, there is simply "do I have an answer to this human or not and will I draw one before the game ends". On the flip-side, when playing combo versus control there is a lot of interaction on the stack and I find such games to be the best examples of Vintage games.

    You are exaggerating the "solitaire" aspect of the deck. In truth, when Bargain resolves, the game is already over for the most part. Up until that point I hope you seriously don't believe it is solitaire.

    I'm not sure how to answer your question other than to say that fun is subjective and people take pleasure from different things.



  • @xXHazardXx

    Wondered this too. I doubt it's Misstep though... I think that Dredge and Oath just have smoother draws?



  • How many decks in Legacy run 6-7 pieces of graveyard hate...

    It's not undoable. Dragon was basically the Vintage equivalent of Reanimator during the time periods it saw play. However, you often have to run a transform board because your main plan gets hosed hard by half of people's sideboards. It's challenging to make that work from a deck design perspective, and even more challenging to pilot it through a large event.



  • I do not agree that Griselbrand is way easier to cheat into play than Bargain. Bargain care not about Priest, Karakas, Cage, Metamorph & STP so these are the key differences with Griseldaddy. It is also much more flexible as you dont rely on having 8+ life to go off vs aggro meta and it is more castable.

    Obviously Show & Tell gains a lot of value from Bargain's unrestriction and I think people will first try to jam it in an Oath Shell along with castable Academy Rector, Flash and maybe a 1off Emrakul glued together by 4 Cabal therapy.

    That brew might end up being clunky but I think it is less of a glass canon than trying to push Bargain via a Ritual shell. Im pretty sure Ritual-Bargain (combined with Duress effects) is the reason why Misstep was left untouched for now.

    Shop could jam in some Pithing needle MD to replace Thorn (fetch denial, VKey, Bargain, Bazaar) though the new Spyglass is an absolute hot contender as, again, it plays around Misstep while earning invaluable info for Prison/Aggro tempo decks!

    PO in the end seems to be the real winner though I like the tension between possibly having 2 combo decks relying on 2 different engines: Rituals or Artifacts. They'll have to account for each other so, in the end, it might not be as straight forward but, PO supports FOW & Hurkyl's better so... yeah overall I think PO clearly wins.


  • TMD Supporter

    @13nova said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:

    People are missing this:

    "Starting with this set, all planeswalkers past, present, and future will have the supertype legendary. They will also be subject to the "legend rule." The "planeswalker uniqueness rule" is going away. What does this mean? In short, everything that's true about legendary creatures will now be true about legendary planeswalkers

    Under the new rules, if a player controls more than one legendary planeswalker with the same name, that player chooses one and puts the other into their owner's graveyard. This means that if you control Jace, Unraveler of Secrets and cast Jace, Cunning Castaway, both Jaces can exist under your control.

    In Vintage terms this now means that there is ZERO conflict between running JVP and JTMS in the same deck. I mean, people were already doing that anyway, but this means that you don't need to worry about drawing them both at the same time, Seems like a great boon for those decks.



  • @islandswamp yeah, this is an awsome upgrade. Kind of lame from a flavor perspective, but good from a game play standpoint. I don't think it was missed though, there is any ther thread on the topic.



  • @tribet said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:

    I do not agree that Griselbrand is way easier to cheat into play than Bargain. Bargain care not about Priest, Karakas, Cage & STP so these are the key differences with Griseldaddy. It is also much more flexible as you dont rely on having 8+ life to go off vs aggro meta and it is more castable.

    Many decks can't beat a Flying 7/7 Lifelink Black Creature. A revoked enchantment does nothing. There are certainly as many benefits as drawbacks.



  • @xxhazardxx said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:

    The thing about Bargain is we've have Griselbrand for years and Griselbrand is way easier to cheat into play than a Bargain.

    I'm honestly curious why we've never seen a Reanimator deck tip over in vintage. It's a tier 1 deck in Legacy. The only thing I can think of is Misstep.... But if you play your own Missteps, you'd think the power level of Reanimator would be enough for it to break open.

    What? You may want to read Oath of Druids. Reanimator isn't played in Vintage because Oath is a one card combo. Reanimator is a 2 card combo (barring moving to cleanup with 8 on the draw). You also needlessly open yourself up to your opponents dedicated Dredge hate that exiles the graveyard.



  • @nedleeds A Revoked enchantment is actually a liability as it takes away your draw step.



  • @smmenen said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:

    @brass-man said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:

    http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/august-28-2017-banned-and-restricted-announcement-2017-08-28

    Thorn of Amethyst is restricted
    Monastery Mentor is restricted
    Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted

    Almost exactly what I recommended on these boards and in the podcast.

    Well done, DCI

    Well, except that they left Gush and Probe on the list.

    "Hey, Joe, turns out we were wrong and if we want less Mentor we need to restrict Mentor."
    "Oh. Okay, do that."
    "What about our mistake on Gush and Probe? Didn't we make a mistake? Shouldn't we un-restrict those?"
    "Eh, whatever, I never trusted those cards anyway."



  • @maximumcdawg Anyone who thinks probe was good for the format I am convinced couldn't beat a 10 year old with a draft deck in a vintage tournament, because they crutch way too hard on perfect knowledge.

    ... Just how workshop players crutch on workshop.



  • @nedleeds said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:

    @xxhazardxx said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:

    The thing about Bargain is we've have Griselbrand for years and Griselbrand is way easier to cheat into play than a Bargain.

    I'm honestly curious why we've never seen a Reanimator deck tip over in vintage. It's a tier 1 deck in Legacy. The only thing I can think of is Misstep.... But if you play your own Missteps, you'd think the power level of Reanimator would be enough for it to break open.

    What? You may want to read Oath of Druids. Reanimator isn't played in Vintage because Oath is a one card combo. Reanimator is a 2 card combo (barring moving to cleanup with 8 on the draw). You also needlessly open yourself up to your opponents dedicated Dredge hate that exiles the graveyard.

    Your tone is pretty confrontational. I am very aware of how Oath of Druids works. I'm curious how your "one" card combo works vs a Storm deck or even a Tezzerator? Sure, if your opponent helps you out, it is a one card combo... But then it isn't just a one card combo, is it?

    I understand decks play a bunch of graveyard hate, but that doesn't stop Dredge, does it?



  • @xxhazardxx Dredge is also a hell of a lot stronger than Vintage reanimator would be. Even if you could hypothetically build a reanimator deck that was equal in power to Oath (which I don't think could be done, Oath is just more compact), I would argue that it would be more challenging for such a deck to slog through all the graveyard hate than it is for Oath to slog through Cage and Priest.



  • @ephemeron

    I doubt it would work, but the hypothetical advantage of reanimator is that it can put a body in play on turn one. Oath needs an upkeep step so you can't oath till turn two. So reanimate isn't just a worse oath, the pure speed build can be one turn faster.


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