August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement



  • @xxhazardxx said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:

    I'm honestly curious why we've never seen a Reanimator deck tip over in vintage.

    I think Oath is just better than Reanimate, Show and Tell, Sneak Attack and Hypergenesis. Oath the card might not be as good as Hypergenesis though, but i don't think HG the deck can ever be good in Vintage.

    This is just how i see it. I think if you want to cheat the rules of magic to cast big critters on the cheap, you go Oath. The builds for Oath also don't require 10 slots dedicated to creatures, so it's just a better card and a better deck.

    @tribet said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:

    I do not agree that Griselbrand is way easier to cheat into play than Bargain.

    Outside of moxes, Bargain is powered into through rituals, which is hurt by more chances to easily counter than Oath (now Misstep and casting 3 spells turns on your opponents MBT).

    Bargain care not about Priest, Karakas, Cage, Metamorph & STP so these are the key differences with Griseldaddy

    Griselbrand does not care about Karakas or STP because you still get to draw into 14 cards anyway. You will find a counter or a new win con. Cage and Priest do nothing once Grisel is in play, but Yawgs is stopped by Revoker/Pithing.



  • @sovarius ok I suppose that why Grisel-Oath was doing so well before Mentor restriction then.



  • @tribet nice strawman argument. Just because Oath hasn't been good lately does not mean that reanimator would be better. If reanimator was good it would have been seeing play over oath. It hasn't. Oath's struggles shows how bad a reanimator strategy really would be.


  • Administrators

    Without speaking in absolutes - Reanimator does have some advantages over Oath.

    Compared to Orchard+Oath, Entomb+Reanimate costs the same mana, but gets a creature in play immediately ... a Shallow Grave costs just one more mana and gives it haste (attacking 2 turns earlier than Oath would have). On that subject, there are dozens of reanimation cards, so you can build the deck redundantly in a way an Oath deck can't

    A Reanimator strategy doesn't have the same deckbuilding limitations that Oath does - you can run as few or as many creatures as you want ... and while this is not absolute, black is probably a more powerful core color than green is.

    That said, it has major drawbacks, too. Compared to Legacy, Vintage just has a lot more graveyard hate kicking around. Dredge is, I suspect, more consistently fast at reanimating a creature with Dread Return than Reanimator is with Entomb+Reanimate. Specialized counters like Mental Misstep and Flusterstorm are something a Reanimator deck would have to deal with that Oath has less of a problem with.

    I'm not sure that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Luckily for all of us, MTGO has democratized vintage tournaments, so if anyone's curious they can easily find out for themselves and let us know!



  • @brass-man Good summary. Legacy's access to 4 Brainstorm's for digging and recycling useless cards cannot be understated either.



  • @tribet said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:

    @sovarius ok I suppose that why Grisel-Oath was doing so well before Mentor restriction then.

    Swords and Oath have existed before Mentor decks, and Griselbrand has been in Oath decks before Mentor was a thing. I think it just turns out playing 4 Mentor in a control deck that can board Containment Priest is better than a deck that plays 3 Griselbrand and takes issue with Priest. It's more about the whole of it, to me, than it is about 1 removal card.



  • @kingleovold Sorry, I wasnt talking about Reanimator at all here. Im still on the discussion comparing Grisel & Bargain. I thought @Sovarius' comment was a little optimistic and for having played Oath a fair bit, my experience with the deck was very different and I didnt believe in his claim that "Griselbrand does not care about Karakas or STP because you still get to draw into 14 cards anyway. You will find a counter or a new win con. Cage and Priest do nothing once Grisel is in play, but Yawgs is stopped by Revoker/Pithing".
    PS: I havent entered the Reanimate discussion because I dont believe it is viable in Vintage.


  • TMD Supporter

    @brass-man said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:

    @mdkubiak you're so delightful :D

    I'm not sure why, but thank you!


  • TMD Supporter

    @kingleovold said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:

    Small sample size. But one league in workshops still feels absurd to play against. BOOO. On the other side didn't see a single mentor. I lost to a pretty spicy deck that killed my storm deck with aethersworn cannonists. Much more fun losing to that then mentor. :)

    The restriction of Thorn wasn't going to make the deck disappear, just get itself retooled. I think it's fine as a tier 1, but needed a peg taken out.



  • @tribet my bad then. Sorry :)


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