August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement

Crap, I was really starting to like the 3 Abrade in my Oath deck.

I'm generally against Bans and Restrictions in any eternal format, this one is no exception. Mentor has been the most exciting and fun card Vintage has ever seen and now it's restricted. They've been hacking away at shops for years now, one day the tower will fall and shops will go from dominant to unplayable, maybe we are finally here. Personally I think shops is an important part of the Vintage meta and think it's tragic that they continue to pull it apart.
I don't care if a deck or card is dominant, to me that's what new cards are for, like Mentor was. Vintage is supposed to be broken and I'm sick of these bans. Grumble grumble grumble.

@tribet I was wondering whether you were going to go back to your old tiny-robots mud build...

The number of Modern-legal cards restricted in Vintage is getting comically large.

@rbartlet Misstep vs Skullclamp is still a thing unfortunately & Ballistaes are still around. Pretty sure I was running Thorn along with Wires.
I suppose the didnt ban Misstep because while unrestricting Bargain they must have thought that MM was needed to fight Duress & Dark Rituals

Bargain excites me. I'm not sure about Thorn personally but this cycle certainly changes things around. We need more unrestrictions like Bargain and I'm looking forward to Windfall next.

I'm very excited about the Bargain unrestriction. I'm going to try it in a TPS shell and see how it goes.

@wappla said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:

The number of Modern-legal cards restricted in Vintage is getting comically large.

It's almost like power creep is a thing...

I'm satisfied and that's good enough. I would have preferred Sphere. I really wanted Misstep to go. This card is so format warping in how much it limits decks. Maybe next time. I'm exited to start building.

Mentor and Thorn 1x - ok. Sphere might have been nicer to restrict so that opponents are incentivized to play creatures. But these are at least reasonable decisions.

But what exactly does the possibility of 4x Bargain add to this format? Does drawing 12-19 cards and killing someone on the spot add dimension to this format? Is that "fun" for more than one of the two players involved in a game?

@ribby said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:

But what exactly does the possibility of 4x Bargain add to this format? Does drawing 12-19 cards and killing someone on the spot add dimension to this format? Is that "fun" for more than one of the two players involved in a game?

Adding more combo decks to the format does indeed add dimension (depth.) You strategically omitted the sequenced lines of play that lead to "drawing 12-19 cards and killing someone on the spot..." You have to accelerate into a Bargain (surpassing missteps and counters,) then carefully sequence the cards you draw so that you avoid (or bait) countermagic and then find your kill condition (most likely tendrils.)

Combo decks, especially of the older variety, are notoriously challenging to pilot.

last edited by Horologium

@apollogod Solitaire is a challenging one-person game too.

@chubbyrain the hilarious part is most of them are garbage in standard.

@ribby said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:

@apollogod Solitaire is a challenging one-person game too.

Your disdain for combo decks is well documented. Thankfully not everyone feels the same way. I am excited for Bargain being unrestricted and will be playing Vintage again.

To address your earlier point, I do find it more fun to be killed by someone drawing 19 cards and comboing me out than being swung to death by idiotic humans whose text say "you cannot do x". Then again, I feel your question is somewhat rhetorical, but sometimes these things don't translate well over the web.

last edited by Hrishi

I'm happy for this announcement but kind of hoped for sphere not amethyst to be hit. Also, derp-islands should be restricted, they're format warping.

@hrishi I don't think Bargain will be that great, but I'm glad it'll bring you back. I don't think the risk is worth the reward, but that's just me.

Maybe this is a next-level unrestriction where the powers that be are betting that Bargain is actually terrible and thus doesn't destroy Vintage, but are still looking to pick up all the hardcore combo players.

PS you really like just sitting there doing nothing while your opponent is playing Solitaire with their whole deck? Why? What satisfaction do you get out of that? I hardly believe it.

last edited by ribby

The thing about Bargain is we've have Griselbrand for years and Griselbrand is way easier to cheat into play than a Bargain.

I'm honestly curious why we've never seen a Reanimator deck tip over in vintage. It's a tier 1 deck in Legacy. The only thing I can think of is Misstep.... But if you play your own Missteps, you'd think the power level of Reanimator would be enough for it to break open.

@ribby said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:

PS you really like just sitting there doing nothing while your opponent is playing Solitaire with their whole deck? Why? What satisfaction do you get out of that? I hardly believe it.

How is that any better than being swung at by Humans with binary functions designed to shut down specific aspects of decks? There is no-outplay potential here, there is simply "do I have an answer to this human or not and will I draw one before the game ends". On the flip-side, when playing combo versus control there is a lot of interaction on the stack and I find such games to be the best examples of Vintage games.

You are exaggerating the "solitaire" aspect of the deck. In truth, when Bargain resolves, the game is already over for the most part. Up until that point I hope you seriously don't believe it is solitaire.

I'm not sure how to answer your question other than to say that fun is subjective and people take pleasure from different things.

@xXHazardXx

Wondered this too. I doubt it's Misstep though... I think that Dredge and Oath just have smoother draws?

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