How many decks in Legacy run 6-7 pieces of graveyard hate...
It's not undoable. Dragon was basically the Vintage equivalent of Reanimator during the time periods it saw play. However, you often have to run a transform board because your main plan gets hosed hard by half of people's sideboards. It's challenging to make that work from a deck design perspective, and even more challenging to pilot it through a large event.
I do not agree that Griselbrand is way easier to cheat into play than Bargain. Bargain care not about Priest, Karakas, Cage, Metamorph & STP so these are the key differences with Griseldaddy. It is also much more flexible as you dont rely on having 8+ life to go off vs aggro meta and it is more castable.
Obviously Show & Tell gains a lot of value from Bargain's unrestriction and I think people will first try to jam it in an Oath Shell along with castable Academy Rector, Flash and maybe a 1off Emrakul glued together by 4 Cabal therapy.
That brew might end up being clunky but I think it is less of a glass canon than trying to push Bargain via a Ritual shell. Im pretty sure Ritual-Bargain (combined with Duress effects) is the reason why Misstep was left untouched for now.
Shop could jam in some Pithing needle MD to replace Thorn (fetch denial, VKey, Bargain, Bazaar) though the new Spyglass is an absolute hot contender as, again, it plays around Misstep while earning invaluable info for Prison/Aggro tempo decks!
PO in the end seems to be the real winner though I like the tension between possibly having 2 combo decks relying on 2 different engines: Rituals or Artifacts. They'll have to account for each other so, in the end, it might not be as straight forward but, PO supports FOW & Hurkyl's better so... yeah overall I think PO clearly wins.
@13nova said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:
People are missing this:
"Starting with this set, all planeswalkers past, present, and future will have the supertype legendary. They will also be subject to the "legend rule." The "planeswalker uniqueness rule" is going away. What does this mean? In short, everything that's true about legendary creatures will now be true about legendary planeswalkers
Under the new rules, if a player controls more than one legendary planeswalker with the same name, that player chooses one and puts the other into their owner's graveyard. This means that if you control Jace, Unraveler of Secrets and cast Jace, Cunning Castaway, both Jaces can exist under your control.
In Vintage terms this now means that there is ZERO conflict between running JVP and JTMS in the same deck. I mean, people were already doing that anyway, but this means that you don't need to worry about drawing them both at the same time, Seems like a great boon for those decks.
@islandswamp yeah, this is an awsome upgrade. Kind of lame from a flavor perspective, but good from a game play standpoint. I don't think it was missed though, there is any ther thread on the topic.
@tribet said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:
I do not agree that Griselbrand is way easier to cheat into play than Bargain. Bargain care not about Priest, Karakas, Cage & STP so these are the key differences with Griseldaddy. It is also much more flexible as you dont rely on having 8+ life to go off vs aggro meta and it is more castable.
Many decks can't beat a Flying 7/7 Lifelink Black Creature. A revoked enchantment does nothing. There are certainly as many benefits as drawbacks.
@xxhazardxx said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:
The thing about Bargain is we've have Griselbrand for years and Griselbrand is way easier to cheat into play than a Bargain.
I'm honestly curious why we've never seen a Reanimator deck tip over in vintage. It's a tier 1 deck in Legacy. The only thing I can think of is Misstep.... But if you play your own Missteps, you'd think the power level of Reanimator would be enough for it to break open.
What? You may want to read Oath of Druids. Reanimator isn't played in Vintage because Oath is a one card combo. Reanimator is a 2 card combo (barring moving to cleanup with 8 on the draw). You also needlessly open yourself up to your opponents dedicated Dredge hate that exiles the graveyard.
@nedleeds A Revoked enchantment is actually a liability as it takes away your draw step.
@smmenen said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:
@brass-man said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:
Thorn of Amethyst is restricted
Monastery Mentor is restricted
Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestrictedAlmost exactly what I recommended on these boards and in the podcast.
Well done, DCI
Well, except that they left Gush and Probe on the list.
"Hey, Joe, turns out we were wrong and if we want less Mentor we need to restrict Mentor."
"Oh. Okay, do that."
"What about our mistake on Gush and Probe? Didn't we make a mistake? Shouldn't we un-restrict those?"
"Eh, whatever, I never trusted those cards anyway."
@maximumcdawg Anyone who thinks probe was good for the format I am convinced couldn't beat a 10 year old with a draft deck in a vintage tournament, because they crutch way too hard on perfect knowledge.
... Just how workshop players crutch on workshop.
@nedleeds said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:
@xxhazardxx said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:
The thing about Bargain is we've have Griselbrand for years and Griselbrand is way easier to cheat into play than a Bargain.
I'm honestly curious why we've never seen a Reanimator deck tip over in vintage. It's a tier 1 deck in Legacy. The only thing I can think of is Misstep.... But if you play your own Missteps, you'd think the power level of Reanimator would be enough for it to break open.
What? You may want to read Oath of Druids. Reanimator isn't played in Vintage because Oath is a one card combo. Reanimator is a 2 card combo (barring moving to cleanup with 8 on the draw). You also needlessly open yourself up to your opponents dedicated Dredge hate that exiles the graveyard.
Your tone is pretty confrontational. I am very aware of how Oath of Druids works. I'm curious how your "one" card combo works vs a Storm deck or even a Tezzerator? Sure, if your opponent helps you out, it is a one card combo... But then it isn't just a one card combo, is it?
I understand decks play a bunch of graveyard hate, but that doesn't stop Dredge, does it?
@xxhazardxx Dredge is also a hell of a lot stronger than Vintage reanimator would be. Even if you could hypothetically build a reanimator deck that was equal in power to Oath (which I don't think could be done, Oath is just more compact), I would argue that it would be more challenging for such a deck to slog through all the graveyard hate than it is for Oath to slog through Cage and Priest.
I doubt it would work, but the hypothetical advantage of reanimator is that it can put a body in play on turn one. Oath needs an upkeep step so you can't oath till turn two. So reanimate isn't just a worse oath, the pure speed build can be one turn faster.
@13nova said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:
@maximumcdawg Anyone who thinks probe was good for the format I am convinced couldn't beat a 10 year old with a draft deck in a vintage tournament, because they crutch way too hard on perfect knowledge.
The issue isn't whether "Probe was good for the format." The issue is whether it needed to be restricted.
There are many cards that may not be "good for the format" but are unrestricted.
The restriction of Gitaxian Probe was utterly unnecessary. That's why only 12% of Vintage players surveyed felt it should be restricted.
@smmenen Agreed. I hate Gitaxian Probe as a card and I also hate Mental Misstep as a card, but that doesn't mean a restriction is in order. My bias should not be taken into account.
I've been on record saying I believe both of those should have been restricted in the past, but I've moved away from that way of thinking. I'm generally under the mindset now cards should only be restricted unless absolutely necessary. If they restrict a card and it's proven it shouldn't be restricted, then it should get unrestricted. Now a case could be made not to do more than 1 unrestriction a b/r update, as to see how things play out.
For example, Wizard's specifically said they restricted Gitaxian Probe was restricted because they thought it would lessen Mentor's impact. That was proven false. If their claim was wrong, is there a need to still have it restricted?
Small sample size. But one league in workshops still feels absurd to play against. BOOO. On the other side didn't see a single mentor. I lost to a pretty spicy deck that killed my storm deck with aethersworn cannonists. Much more fun losing to that then mentor. 
@xxhazardxx said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:
I'm honestly curious why we've never seen a Reanimator deck tip over in vintage.
I think Oath is just better than Reanimate, Show and Tell, Sneak Attack and Hypergenesis. Oath the card might not be as good as Hypergenesis though, but i don't think HG the deck can ever be good in Vintage.
This is just how i see it. I think if you want to cheat the rules of magic to cast big critters on the cheap, you go Oath. The builds for Oath also don't require 10 slots dedicated to creatures, so it's just a better card and a better deck.
@tribet said in August 28, 2017 Banned & Restricted Announcement:
I do not agree that Griselbrand is way easier to cheat into play than Bargain.
Outside of moxes, Bargain is powered into through rituals, which is hurt by more chances to easily counter than Oath (now Misstep and casting 3 spells turns on your opponents MBT).
Bargain care not about Priest, Karakas, Cage, Metamorph & STP so these are the key differences with Griseldaddy
Griselbrand does not care about Karakas or STP because you still get to draw into 14 cards anyway. You will find a counter or a new win con. Cage and Priest do nothing once Grisel is in play, but Yawgs is stopped by Revoker/Pithing.
@sovarius ok I suppose that why Grisel-Oath was doing so well before Mentor restriction then.
@tribet nice strawman argument. Just because Oath hasn't been good lately does not mean that reanimator would be better. If reanimator was good it would have been seeing play over oath. It hasn't. Oath's struggles shows how bad a reanimator strategy really would be.
Without speaking in absolutes - Reanimator does have some advantages over Oath.
Compared to Orchard+Oath, Entomb+Reanimate costs the same mana, but gets a creature in play immediately ... a Shallow Grave costs just one more mana and gives it haste (attacking 2 turns earlier than Oath would have). On that subject, there are dozens of reanimation cards, so you can build the deck redundantly in a way an Oath deck can't
A Reanimator strategy doesn't have the same deckbuilding limitations that Oath does - you can run as few or as many creatures as you want ... and while this is not absolute, black is probably a more powerful core color than green is.
That said, it has major drawbacks, too. Compared to Legacy, Vintage just has a lot more graveyard hate kicking around. Dredge is, I suspect, more consistently fast at reanimating a creature with Dread Return than Reanimator is with Entomb+Reanimate. Specialized counters like Mental Misstep and Flusterstorm are something a Reanimator deck would have to deal with that Oath has less of a problem with.
I'm not sure that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Luckily for all of us, MTGO has democratized vintage tournaments, so if anyone's curious they can easily find out for themselves and let us know!
