@aelien Perhaps it does need more than one. I've been playing one Chain and one Echoing Truth anyway.
However I think Lavinia raises another question: because it hoses Outcome much worse than black-based storm, is it possible for this deck to be reconfigured in a way that just operates better under the restrictions she imposes, and thereby make a resurgence? Obviously it's better if she gets discarded preemptively, and we'd need to find Chain of Vapor or similar mid-combo one way or another, but honestly if people start playing Lavinia instead of Thalia that seems like a win for black storm to me.
@craw_advantage shifting the deck to use Pyroblasts could be a nice, flexible option. Karakas handles both Lavinia and Thalia while never being truly dead. I wonder if the best Storm response to a Lavinia-heavy metagame would be just bringing the CMC of the deck down. Winning on turn four with a Lavinia in play doesn't seem particularly hard if you see it coming.
@brass-man That's kind of what I'm thinking. It means replacing stuff like Bargain and Dark Petition and potentially adding a couple more lands, etc, but it doesn't seem all that bad really... Lavinia does do some damage but she doesn't care about rituals or cantrips.
@ten-ten good idea, we could also just add dark depths combo as a win con and change the name of the deck to "Terrains" or something like that.
@ebgmtg Iam not a fan of pyroclasm solely because of its sorcery speed. Taking mana away from the turn in which you you want to remove a disruptive element to go off, makes the latter much harder. Especially if you where pressured by those creatures for life total, you probably wont have a ton of lands to work with.
Eot removing a disruption piece, then untapping and going off is way smoother is you ask me.
Here is my current list, adjusted for having to deal with Lavinia, it is devoid of any "cute" cards and seems to be a pretty solid performer for me at the moment.
Mana sources (29)
Business/Good Stuff (4)
I put the red splash back in so i can play Pyroblast in the sideboard, and while doing that, why not add Wheel back in? I have cut Defense Grids in the sideboard, since they kind of desynergize with Pyroblast. While playing with this list, be careful to only fetch for your Badlands when you intend on using it immediatly, getting it wastlanded is pretty devestating considering this and Ruby are the only consistent red sources in the Deck. Currently Pyroblast has both been great as removal and an kind of unexpected "got you" card sometimes, but ofcourse MM is its biggest weakness, try to clear the way with discard spells before using it if you want to remove a problematic threat with it.
I have had a couple of situations in which an LED in the deck would open up an easy win instead of doing nothing, i might want to add it in again, especially now with Wheel back in the mix.
Out - 2 Defense Grid, 1 Thoughtseize, 4 Duress.
In - 3 Hurkyl's Recall, 1 Rebuild, 1 Echoing Truth, 1 Tinker, 1 Blightsteel Colossus
On the play you might want to consider not cutting that many discard spells, on the draw, throw them out. Cutting a Bargain is a good option if you need an additional slot open since you most likely will suffer some damage before going off.
Out - 1 Hurkyl's Recall, 1 Wheel of Fortune, 1 Cabal Ritual
In - 3 Pyroblast
If they play Lavinia you also want to bring in Echoing Truth, if they do not play any permanent hate cards, consider cutting Chain of Vapor over Cabal Ritual. You can consider cutting a Bargain if they play aggressive and you tend to take some damage while still setting up.
See above, with the exception that you want to bring in Sadistic Sacrement if they play less than 3 actual win conditions (Some only play Tendrils, Mentor and Key for example). I dont recommend brining it in if they have more than three. Look out for Blightsteel, Jace, Tezzeret, Karn and the likes.
If pitch Dredge
Out - 1 Wheel of Fortune, 1 Hurkyl's Recall, 1 Chain of Vapor, 1 Thoughtseize
In - 4 Leyline of the Void
If no pitch:
Out - 1 Duress, 3 Thoughtseize, 2 Defense Grid, 1 Wheel of Fortune
In - 1 Tinker, 1 Blightsteel Colossus, 1 Echoing Truth, 4 Leyline of the Void
Out - 1 Wheel of Fortune, 1 Hurkyl's Recall, 1 Yawgmoth's Bargain, 1 Chain of Vapor, 1 Cabal Ritual
In - 3 Pyroblast, 1 Tinker, 1 Blightsteel Colossus
If they play Lavinia, Thalia, Canonist, Leovold, Stoney Silence, Null Rod or other probelmatic permanents, consider leaving in Hurkyl's Recall or bringing in Echoing Truth.
Edit: Why no Leylines here? They are just not optimal, they slow down their deck, but they still have a lot of threats that ignore the leylines. I opted to go for more of a race, rather than try to slow them a bit and slowing myself in the process because of the 4 more cuts I have to make, however this is not the best way to go about it I think. The better sideboard cards against them would be tormods crypts or ravenous traps, mostly because you are not locked into boarding 4 or nothing. However, playing these cards instead of leylines will make your pitch dredge matchup much worse, leylines is without a doubt the best card against that strategy. I think it depends on what deck is more prevalent in your meta.
Out - 2 Defense Grid, 4 Duress
In - 1 Tinker, 1 Blightsteel Colossus, 1 Echoing Truth, 3 Hurkyl's Recall
Here the Hurkyl's mostly comes in because having them is better than the other options, if they play Null Rod - good - if they dont its just mana/storm acceleration. If they play blue (Lavinia) bring in 3 Pyroblasts instead.
Out - 2 Defense Grid, 1 Hurkyl's Recall
In - 1 Sadistic Sacrement, 2 Pyroblast
To be honest Pyroblast might not be the best here, the mirror mostly revolves around discard spells and beeing faster than your opponent. Pyroblast is okay, but not really incredible since most of the threats are black. You might just want to bring in Tinker/Robot to have another threat or more hurkyl's as acceleration.
I have not had a ton of testing with this list, what do you think about it and the sideboard plans? Iam considering cutting 1 pyro from the sideboard again, but iam kind of scared of Lavinia, especially now when everybody is testing her.
I'm going to give this list a shot. I'm currently playing a similar main (+1 LED, -1 thoughtseize, -1 chain, +1 grid, +1 preordain, +1 DP, - MD, - TW), but a fairly different board. I've found walk to be worse than preordain in most cases when only running Tendrils as a win con. Do have it in primarily due to tinker-bot in the board? How's your consistency with MDs? I found it sometimes hard to cast and other times you could just win anyways with another DP, but maybe i need to reevaluate. Also curious about the leylines. Looks like they're only coming in against dredge. I've had success with crypt here as usually crypting them when their first GY triggers hit the stack is enough time to go off and it helps bolster the storm count. Looking forward to getting your thoughts and trying this out!
I've found walk to be worse than preordain in most cases when only running Tendrils as a win con. Do have it in primarily due to tinker-bot in the board?
Walk isnt at its best thats for sure, however I still think it's better than preordain. I mostly use it as a set up spell. Playing Necro and timewalk in the same turn is most of the time a win right there, or just sticking a Defense Grid and time walking to untap and go off behind the grid. It's just a very effective set up spell.
How's your consistency with MDs? I found it sometimes hard to cast and other times you could just win anyways with another DP, but maybe i need to reevaluate.
Desires main point is to punish blue opponents, that decline to counter your Tutor. It just needing a game ending thread that is very hard to counter (aside from flusterstorm and trap), makes the card worth including in my opinion.
As of consistensy, if you can get it for 4, it's good, 5 and greater are near guaranteed wins. I only cast it for less than that when I have no other choice. The card has become slightly more powerful since the printing of DP, it's a ritual and demonic in 1 if you cast it with desire. Also finding a bargain with it, is obviously a win most of the time. It is true that there are quite often when you could go tutor it and cast it, just in that case why not just get will and win immediately or something like that? Desire is in there for its power against opponents holding FoW mostly.
Also curious about the leylines. Looks like they're only coming in against dredge. I've had success with crypt here as usually crypting them when their first GY triggers hit the stack is enough time to go off and it helps bolster the storm count.
Yeah, the leylines are one of my biggest problems atm. Before survival they just where the most powerful thing against Dredge (especially pitch) to have, but against survival I always debate if I even want them in or rather not. If you put them in, it slows them down, but not nearly as much as dredge, they have a bunch of threats which still work. If you keep them out, you have to be very fast. I do not think they are optimal at the moment, testing crypts and traps instead should be way better against survival but worse against dredge I believe. Boarding against survival is hard, and I haven't figured it quite out yet, since it is so dependent on what kind of toolbox hate they play. Lavinia, Thalia, leovolds, canonist...
I'll add something to my post about that.
Are shops that small of a portion of your meta that you can get away with 12 lands md and 0 in the SB? Also, seems like Lavinia would make you want to have more lands in the deck.
I haven't been a big fan of Red in the deck since Dark petition first came out. Although I got to say that Pyroblast seems like a really good and versatile card in a Lavinia meta.
Isn't 12+ protection spells a little too much vs blue decks post board though? Defense Grid has been the best trump card vs blue decks in my experience, why only 2 in the 75? We can't really play the 1 for 1 attrition game vs Xerox.
Not a big fan of Leyline, wouldn't Tormod's crypt, Ravenous trap or Surgical/extirpate be better there?
I've liked having tinker BSC in the main as a plan B for a while, what are your thoughts?
Cutting Led is definitely the right decision since null rod effects have been more common and it being a win more card rather than an enabler with a lot of the bombs in the deck, that and the restriction of probe making the card a lot riskier.
@macdeath i play mostly online, so shops is a respectable part of the meta. I have played another land in the sideboard for a while, i cut it for the extra pyroblast. It might be the wrong descition and seems kind of paradoxical to cut land against lavinia, but i have not been overly punished by it at the moment. However i can totally see either playing another land in the sideboard or even in the maindeck (maybe cutting a cabal ritual). The thing about Shops is, that you cant just rely on having a solid manabase, making your landdrops and Eot hurkyl's them after a while, like you used to be able to do. They are way to agressive now for that slow plan to work.
As for red: I did cut red for a long time, and played only UB and i liked it, however i wanted to try pyroblast and with that adding Wheel is kind of a no brainer.
My high number of protection (especially so much discard) is personal preference i would say. I like to start every turn with a discard spell to see whats up. I had 2 more grids in the sideboard before, but i cut them for the pyroblasts. Maybe cutting one more Pyro in the sideboard for a grid is fine. I never was a big fan of lists playing 4 grids maindeck.
Leyline: The Problem with Leyline is that its not really incredible against Survival, other than that it is the best option for sure. Especially now that most Dredge decks play Countermagic, it is so powerful to stick it uncounterable on your upkeep. I never bring in GY hate against decks just to hose a couple of cards like snapcaster mage or stuff like that, for that reason i belive extirpate and surgical are not good at all.
I can see Traps, Crypt and Leyline as options. Extirpate and Surgical are not really playable at the moment i think.
Thanks for the feedback
@aelien how have you been doing with this list. I ran it through quite a few leagues to mainly 3-2 or 2-3 finishes. I did run crypts over leyline. The deck just seems underpowered in the current meta and I've since switched back over to PO. I'm curious to get you take on it. Thanks.