@stuart
I can't help but wonder if you would have been better positioned better vs PO mentor and oath with 1-2 tseize md.

Do we really need LED? it feels win more a lot of the time, and only really shines on rare occasions. It increases variability quite a lot. Also Tinker bot should be in the main deck unless your meta has shops underrepresented. Tinker is also pretty good vs blue decks to clear a path for ywill or fetching a Defense grid.

Saddistic sacrament has always been a little loose in my opinion, since you are usually winning the game when you have a bomb with the same cmc resolving. The BBB forces you to invest heavily into it. It also has gotten a lot worse without probe and with decks like oath or mentor which have diversified their win cons.

How good has bontu's last reckonning been for you? It doesn't seem like it would be better than stuff like EE, Toxic deluge or even pack rat?

3/4 slots should be all you need vs dredge. Especially since most versions have traded speed for resiliency to hate, which makes them softer to Ritual storm in general.

Sphinx vs BSC is debatable although I feel like ravager makes lifelink in general a lot worse (as seen with the decline of Griselbrand in oath which it is partly responsible for). But Sphinx is definitely a house vs a deck like hatebears/humans.

Since you made room for preordains, was surprised not to see Top. It is a lot more versatile and helps when you are forced to play the longer game. Also better bait for missteps.

Curious to hear your thoughts on these matters.

EDIT: Where is Library? Card is ridiculously good in the deck.

last edited by Macdeath

@macdeath

@macdeath Thanks for the thorough reply! My thoughts, with the caveat that this was my first time playing Storm in an actual event (I’ve just been goldfishing and playing pickup games):

  • Thoughtseize used to be in my list, but I cut it for more Defense Grids. You’re right though, I could revisit it to help battle other combo.
  • I see what you’re saying about LED being win more, but it’s been great for me. I find it fills that “I need an extra black source!!!” role that people sometimes use Chrome Mox for, and it’s definitely helped me Tutor & Will much more effectively.
  • If I were to play MD Tinker, I feel like I’d want a Memory Jar in the deck. But yeah, Sphinx & BSC are strong enough that I’d consider it. Bare minimum, having another must-counter is good.
  • You’re probably right on Sacrament. It was just too fun of an effect for me to cut, but it wasn’t necessary. The time I used it, I probably could instead have just won the game.
  • I ran 2 Bontu’s after it bailed me out against Leovold during practice the week before, but it did nothing all day. EE is probably a better sweeper, though honestly I’m not sure we need one at all.
  • Agreed on Dredge hate. I’d stick with 3-4 pieces if I was playing online or in a big event, but for these tournaments, I could see going down to 2.
  • I played Top for a while, but it always felt too durdly. My list can grind decently as is, and I’ve been much happier with it since cutting Top.
  • I was playing Library! You’re absolutely right, the card is insane.
last edited by Stuart

@stuart

  • Thoughtseize is a great card, so much better than duress vs "Thorn" decks, and helps to make the strip your hand of action/counters plan much more effective. I like to have 8+ cards (2 grids/ 6 discard) that can interact with blue decks in the md, although that is my personal preference/playstyle. I've also been spoiled playing 4 probes 4 duress 2 therapies in the deck for a long time that I find it hard to play the deck with only 1 probe and 4 duress for the information which is so crucial to the deck.
  • LED needs you to already be winning to be useful in general. It does open a few lines of play where no other cards could. But the idea is that is does nothing to help the deck in tough spots. Basically it doesn't help the deck solve any issues but just plays to the already established core competencies of the deck. The idea is that the deck doesn't need any more "balls to the wall" element because it's already the best deck at that, but rather needs ways to be able to navigate the structural issues it faces in the current environment. It also gets a lot worse/ riskier without gitaxian probe.
  • Memory Jar used to be be a must include in the past, when the deck didn't have quite the same threat density and didn't have access to more potent threats. It's also become much more of a liability vs artifact removal and null rod which are more prevalent than they used to be. Having tinker-bot in the main is mainly to have more flexibility against workshops and hate spells.dec.
  • Sensei has better tricks with bounce spells, has good synergy with necro/ tolarian and is more efficient with vampiric tutor than preordain is. From a strategic perspective it's much better to help you build up your mana vs shops or to continue hitting threats against blue decks (and also makes discard less effective in the combo mirror/ dredge matchup).
    Obviously preordain is better in the early game and is more synergistic with cards like cabal ritual and Dark petition.
  • My bad for library, when I was rereading your post it somehow didn't register in my brain.
last edited by Macdeath

I was in Houston for the weekend, which included Vintage yesterday. Thanks to Easter we only got 5, so we did a round robin. I wound up coming in first. Matches were:

  • Round 1: Show & Tell: 2-0
  • Round 2: Merfolk: 2-0
  • Round 3: UWR Mentor Control: 1-2
  • Round 4: bye
  • Round 5: GB Depths: 2-0

(Obviously this is a pretty easy meta for Storm.)

I played the same 60 as the last time I piloted Bargain Storm, with a Llawan added to the sideboard for lols (Houston has an inbred meta, and you can expect 1-2 Merfolk players each round). So that's:

1 Vamp
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necro
1 Yawg Will
1 Tendrils
2 Dark Petition
3 Bargain

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Probe
3 Preordain
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Mind's Desire

1 Mana Crypt
1 Petal
1 LED
1 Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
3 Defense Grid

1 Academy
1 Library
4 U Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Delta

2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyl's
1 Tinker
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Tormod's
1 Defense Grid
1 Swamp
1 Island

Some quick thoughts:

  • Shops is kinda unpopular in paper out here; I think it's sort of a gentlemen's agreement/stigma type deal. Without lots of Thorn of Amethyst, Bargain Storm is incredibly good.
  • That said, I find my next biggest predator is anything in the Big Blue wheelhouse. I'm currently playing 4 Duress, 3 Grid in the main, with an extra Grid in the board. However, I think I need more to help with Big Blue; right now, I feel like it's just "slam must-counters till something sticks," but usually, nothing sticks. Thoughtsieze and Misstep are the two things that come to mind, unless I splash red for Pyroblast.
  • Bontu's and the grave hate have consistently been kinda dead slots. I'm thinking I'll go -2 Bontu's, -2 Ravenous Trap, +1 Dismember, +1 Thoughtseize, +2 Misstep? Something like that.
  • Obviously no one should ever play Llawan. I beat Merfolk with a Llawan, but I also woulda won if I'd just combo'd off. Still, she was pretty adorable.

All that said, I'll be on White Eldrazi for the forseeable future - gotta start prepping for SCG Con!

@stuart sounded like a sweet little tournament. I always like to read about small localized metals and the way it allows for fairly unusual deck building decisions, compared to the a "typical" list from mtgo or a big tournament. The Problem here is just that while I would like to give my opinion on card choices, Ian just not sure if those choices I question are another result of your local meta.

On another note:
Iam a little scared that a lot of blue decks (Xerox maybe, landstill, especially big blue, ...) might start to play the new dampening sphere, probably in the sideboard, mostly to slow shops and PO down.
Blue decks starting to play easy to cast taxing effects might be a huge problem, since most builds are either geared (after boarding) to fight against opposing countermagic or to fight against opposing taxing effects, but not both. The sphere slows often slows their own game plan down a bit, but leaves the deck functional while we have to find an answer to it since we cannot win with it in play.
It reminds me a bit of matchups against blue countermagic wielding decks with troublesome permanents like Leovold or Kambal. I always hated those matchups, it is very hard to protect against both of these angles and still have a functioning Deck. However, I expect dampening sphere could become a much larger part of sideboards in a variety of decks and be a regular threat we have to handle.
Do you have defense plans on that? Bringing in more hurkyl's recall instead of boarding it out in addition to the typical countermagic answers could be a possibility, but that would probably come at the cost of watering down the storm aspect of the deck more. I usually liked Tinker/Bot against troublesome permanents in blue decks like Leovold, however sphere might be played in the same decks as Dack fayden.
Any Ideas?

I'm thinking about what I want to play at the next Austin Vintage event, and Storm is hard to pass up. I've noticed that most recent Storm lists on Mtgtop8 are playing 4 Dark Petition, and splashing for Mentor. Is this pretty much accepted as stock at this point? I'm currently on 3 Petition, no Mentor.

@stuart said in Yawgmoth's Storm:

I'm thinking about what I want to play at the next Austin Vintage event, and Storm is hard to pass up. I've noticed that most recent Storm lists on Mtgtop8 are playing 4 Dark Petition, and splashing for Mentor. Is this pretty much accepted as stock at this point? I'm currently on 3 Petition, no Mentor.

I haven't been playing storm much, so take this with a grain of salt. I don't really like the splash for Mentor. It's not awful, but I find it awkward more often than I enjoy it. I like 4x Petition and going all-in on Tendrils (pre-board). A lot of lists seem to not run Wheel of Fortune, but I don't think that's a good thing.

@stuart said in Yawgmoth's Storm:

I'm thinking about what I want to play at the next Austin Vintage event, and Storm is hard to pass up. I've noticed that most recent Storm lists on Mtgtop8 are playing 4 Dark Petition, and splashing for Mentor. Is this pretty much accepted as stock at this point? I'm currently on 3 Petition, no Mentor.

I haven't played Storm recently (as in, past 3 months or so) but I don't think this would be accurate. As mentioned above I tried Mentor and didn't like it either. I actually preferred doing it the Tinker route as an alternate win condition, with Tendrils being the primary plan. It's worth noting that keeping the colour splashing to a minimum does lead to a more stable mana base, being able to just fetch up a bunch of basics in the face of Wastelands is highly underrated.

Cheers @Hrishi and @5space ! That was my intuition - I value being able to fetch basics, and a Scrubland seems pretty bad.

What's our plan against the new Laviana? Assuming this card will see a lot of play in especially xerox it pretty much hates all of the deck. Most lists play 8-10 0cmc cards, most of the deck is designed to cast spells that we do not have the land for in play. Pretty much everything above cmc3 is harshly hated by this card.
Do we have to play stuff like fatal push?

@aelien Might make it worthwhile to run Thoughtseize over Duress. Beyond that I think Chain of Vapor is probably still good.

@craw_advantage iam already running 3 thoughtseize in addition to 4 duress. If this card will see maindeck play by major archetypes then i dont think a single Chain is enough.

It's possible that more slow tutors (e.g. Mystical Tutor, Imperial Seal) could be a help in finding the single Chain.

@aelien Perhaps it does need more than one. I've been playing one Chain and one Echoing Truth anyway.

However I think Lavinia raises another question: because it hoses Outcome much worse than black-based storm, is it possible for this deck to be reconfigured in a way that just operates better under the restrictions she imposes, and thereby make a resurgence? Obviously it's better if she gets discarded preemptively, and we'd need to find Chain of Vapor or similar mid-combo one way or another, but honestly if people start playing Lavinia instead of Thalia that seems like a win for black storm to me.

last edited by craw_advantage

@craw_advantage shifting the deck to use Pyroblasts could be a nice, flexible option. Karakas handles both Lavinia and Thalia while never being truly dead. I wonder if the best Storm response to a Lavinia-heavy metagame would be just bringing the CMC of the deck down. Winning on turn four with a Lavinia in play doesn't seem particularly hard if you see it coming.

@brass-man That's kind of what I'm thinking. It means replacing stuff like Bargain and Dark Petition and potentially adding a couple more lands, etc, but it doesn't seem all that bad really... Lavinia does do some damage but she doesn't care about rituals or cantrips.

@brass-man Yeah Pyroblast seems like a good idea. Bringing the cmc down would probably mean finding an alternative for Dark Petition. Maybe @revengeanceful has the right idea in going back to the TPS singleton heavy tutor and draw7 base.

@aelien thoughts on pyroclasm as a viable option. Also hits yp, mentor (wo backup), tokens, thalia, shops early.

@brass-man that and maybe splashing green for Summer Bloom and it's kind? Taking a cabal out for a summer bloom is a start. Thoughts?

@ten-ten good idea, we could also just add dark depths combo as a win con and change the name of the deck to "Terrains" or something like that.

@ebgmtg Iam not a fan of pyroclasm solely because of its sorcery speed. Taking mana away from the turn in which you you want to remove a disruptive element to go off, makes the latter much harder. Especially if you where pressured by those creatures for life total, you probably wont have a ton of lands to work with.
Eot removing a disruption piece, then untapping and going off is way smoother is you ask me.

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