The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring

@themonadnomad surely the feel of the play experience is subjective, right? I've never felt cheapened by it. If someone wants to own power, they should own power, but I feel like our community puts an unnecessary and sometimes harmful mystique on owning cards.

Being rich is not a prerequisite to enjoying strategy, and the fact that we put so much value on flashy cards, to the point where I've seen many people I care about make seriously unhealthy financial decisions, and many more people opt not to play at all, is one of my least favorite parts of the vintage community.

last edited by Brass Man

@brass-man It is subjective to an extent. There are a lot of elements to a real magic card; art, text, flavor, history, story (and, to your point, sometimes sacrifice) etc. These elements are seldom if ever captured or even well attempted on proxies - most of the time its just a junk card and a sharpy (and a painful exercise in "what does that scribbled on swamp do again?"). If there was no value in playing with real cards then there would be no need at all for the real cards.

I do agree that people should make well-reasoned decisions though. Don't buy a mox if you can't feed your kids. I would never be like "oh you have to get X card that is $$$$$ expensive" - honestly to me the best inroads that I would recommend to paper Vintage at this point would likely be Fish or Eldrazi (unless it was someone that had a LOT of expendable income).

@themonadnomad said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:

If there was no value in playing with real cards then there would be no need at all for the real cards.

That's kind of exactly my point 😛

@brass-man said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:

We solved the price barrier problem 15 years ago with the rise of player-run proxy tournaments. On MTGO, which is by far the easiest way to find a vintage opponent, reserved list cards are cheap and plentiful.

You are absolutely correct. People can play unsanctioned Vintage and Legacy or they can play on those formats MTGO. This is a solution, and I'm completely with you.

The problem is it isn't a complete solution because you cannot play in sanctioned paper events this way. I don't think that's immaterial. There's player awards, of course. There is tracking of your performance. There's champs. There's the ability to see large, high-profile tournaments in paper instead of on MTGO. I love the Vintage Super League, but it's not as fun as watching the players play with real cards.

And I don't see that printing new cards circumvents or tries to weasel out of the Reserve List or anything. It's literally what WotC is supposed to do: print new cards, not old ones. And, if new cards can lessen the barrier to entry into sanctioned Vintage or Legacy, that's good, isn't it?

@themonadnomad said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:

I do agree that people should make well-reasoned decisions though. Don't buy a mox if you can't feed your kids.

Absolutely. No one has the right to own expensive things for free just because they want them. I don't think anyone here is saying that they do.

What we're talking about instead is ways to allow people to enter the format without having to make this choice. Fish and Eldrazi are a good start, but you're still going to be sub-optimal unless you start spending serious money (talking sanctioned here). If you had cards you could run instead of RL cards without being sub-optimal, I think that would be a better situation. Don't you?

last edited by MaximumCDawg

@Brass-Man, I wonder if the masked question should revolve around the existence of sanctioned events and from the perspective of someone that does not play vintage. Clearly this is irrelevant to MTGO.

What I mean by this, is that there is often the perception that vintage is a dead format. This immediately turns to the question of: what is meant by dead? Every other format has a clear and direct correlation between the number/frequency/selection of sanctioned events, and the perceived health of the format. For a variety of reasons, events that allow play-test cards do not feed into this equation. Said events, despite being very similar, are still different. I am not at all suggesting that the perception of said differences are valid, but rather I think that it is worthwhile reminding ourselves that they exist. By existing, the whole RL discussion is able to act somewhat as a scapegoat, particularly as it relates to being a barrier to entry, and is hence, as the OP puts it: a red herring.

It would be amazing, if there could be some consolidation between the broader vintage community's this is how it is vintage, and the official perceived WoTC vintage format. That being said, at least several reasons for why this is not in WoTC's best interest right now to provide such consolidation are quite clear.

@takaryx said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:

A couple of people have brought up the idea that Wizards won't risk altering the RL list because there isn't enough incentive, because these players are such a minority. But I don't exactly agree with that. They already have way to completely remove the barrier to entry without intervening with the RL policy at all, which is to simply ban all RL cards in all formats.

New Legacy; this would honestly be a miserable format. It would be marginally different than Modern, only slightly bumped up because of some stuff like FoW an Brainstorm. It will still be a terrible aggro format since everyone is paying like 8 life off their lands.

It is a really poor gameplay/game design decision to just ban cards based on their price or availability. Bans always have been, and should be, based on power level and effect on format.

And Vintage with no RL would be even worse... Would there even be a reason to make two identical card pool sets and just randomly decide to have different balists? Reserve list cards is what makes these formats.

@takaryx said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:

but what I'm suggesting by the loss of faith is that even if the lawsuit couldn't happen (like with banning all RL cards, rather than reprinting them) or if the lawsuit happened and WOTC won, the consequences would still be pretty much the same. People would quit, investors would leave, and WOTC would lose a lot of money. I'm saying the market is a bigger factor in addition to the litigation.

Investors and collectors of the reserve list are not the people who are buying standard packs. Standard packs are mostly consumed by standard and limited players, most of whom do not play legacy and vintage.

@The_Gremlin_Lord Not really sure any part of your terrible attitude is helping, so if that's how you feel maybe you should find yourself somewhere else instead.

Hypothetical card design ideas here are not intended to inspire Wotc or gain legitimacy (or at least i didn't think anyone thought they were drawing Wotc attention), so i kind of think you are missing the point, which is discussion among fans about what we could see, want to see, or should see.

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