The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring



  • Honestly, I could care less about the reserved list since vintage/legacy is so easy to play on MTGO. I acknowledge that my definition of playable is broad; no, bomberman/worldgorger/other combos? aren't playable, assigning flusterstorm triggers sucks, etc but for the most part it seems fine. Especially recently with the introduction of weekly challenges and competitive leagues. Why would I care about owning power/RL in real life when I can currently jam leagues whenever I want or play in a largish Swiss tournament every week if I wanted to? I know a lot of people would say they miss the community, but I hang out and occasionally post on TMD and the FB group every day and get a pretty good dose of community that way.


  • TMD Supporter

    @brass-man said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:

    What are you trying to get out of this post. Is this active trolling? I'm noticing a pattern where you make long posts on controversial topics while preemptively insulting people who might respond.

    You're doing God's work for those of us that are off-put when the Wall of Text™ posting style is used for heated topics.



  • @brass-man said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:

    @maximumcdawg said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:

    What are you trying to get out of this post. Is this active trolling? I'm noticing a pattern where you make long posts on controversial topics while preemptively insulting people who might respond.

    everyone and their little brother has a strong opinion about regardless of whether they have any idea what they are talking about.

    Is there are specific vintage-related point you're trying to make, or change you're trying to campaign for? TMD is not a great place to campaign for change, but it seems from your post that you are not interested in that sort of thing. Is there a question you're trying to answer?

    How were you hoping this thread was going to play out?

    Wow, yikes.

    No, I'm not trolling anything. I'm advancing a specific point, which is that Reserve List discussions should not fixate on the specific cards on the List, but rather should focus on lobbying WotC to make new cards that don't violate the list.

    I made an effort to make sure this was really clear and completely explained and I spent some time building a chart to prove that WotC actually does print cards that substitute for RL cards.

    Brassman, this is your forum. If you consider this kind of post "trolling," then I'll follow your lead. But, I'm really surprised that you would have that kind of reaction. It might be that you've got a gut reaction to the post simply because it mentions the Reserve List at all -- even though the whole point is to talk about the negative space around it, not the list itself.

    EDIT: What is this pattern you are referring to about actively insulting people? I'm surprised by that, too. Are you talking about the posts I made over on the Errata policy forum where I provided a dump of the background data for the discussion?

    @thecravenone said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:

    You've brought this argument but I think you've done a poor job dismissing it. Of these three examples, the average scores for substitutes are, out of six, 2.75, not listed, and 2.67. The best card you've listed as a replacement for any of these examples is only a 4. I think this further strengthens the argument against your argument.

    It depends on what the argument is. I never suggested Wizards has, in fact, reprinted totally acceptable substitutes for all RL cards. Obviously they have not.

    All I am saying is that they can, and they are willing to do so as we can tell from many other cards which do have suitable replacements. In other words, the RL as such is not a barrier to printing substitutes. (Power level concerns certainly are.) And, if that is the case, wouldn't it be better to work towards getting more 5s and 6s on the chart rather than fixating on the specific RL cards themselves?



  • I actually kinda like what you are putting together; here's what I'd add but obviously it's your list so it's at your discretion:

    I know it's off color but I feel like you could add Twincast under Fork.

    Also maybe Lotus Petal under the Mox section.

    Hedge Troll was a tribute-version of Sedge Troll ... again off color though I know.

    ... and that's all I got!



  • @themonadnomad Those are absolutely good additions; thanks!



  • @MaximumCDawg thank you for starting this. I wanted to do something similar but didn't know where to begin and with very minimum free time between family and work, I got overwhelmed and just dropped the project.



  • This post is deleted!


  • @MaximumCDawg Just another addition: Plague Sliver and Grinning Demon are Juzam Djinns :)



  • @rageflash Plague Sliver is basically the same card (the interaction with other Slivers not being reasonably probable in relevant circumstances), and Grinning Demon is probably more like a 4... more power and more pain mean you probably need to build a different deck with it.

    All that said, you're totally right. These guys are not on the list yet because I have not gone beyond ABUR yet. I plan to do that, though, so the list eventually goes over the entire Reserve List.



  • @hierarchnoble Amen on the wall of text thing! It goes without saying that the wall of text is my go-to shtick. I am NOT-O-K with people trying to horn in on my angle. That goes for everyone around here. Just watch yourselves.



  • @topical_island Yeah, can't have too many people putting thought into their posts. I mean, our President has shown us that you only need 128 characters for anything worth saying, amiright?



  • @maximumcdawg i just realized that you haven't gone beyond ABUR; sorry man. : ( Other additions (i hope i get this right this time) are Concentrate and Harmonize for Ancestral Recall and Time Warp for Time Walk


  • TMD Supporter

    @maximumcdawg

    I do love my brevity, but so many passionate words have been thrown at the reserved list, banned and restricted list, errata, and other unsolvable topics that I don't know what another few paragraphs will accomplish.

    As for the reserved list, Aaron Forsythe is on record on Twitter saying Reverberate is too close to Fork's functionality by WotC's current standards, so keep that in mind when doing your evaluations. I can't tweet at work so the digging for proof would be cumbersome, but I'm sure the internet has it somewhere.



  • @hierarchnoble I understand. It's a risky topic. I actually don't think anyone has been too fired up in this thread, which is awesome! Let's talk data!

    And you are remembering correctly about Reverberate. It happened on October 8, 2013. Here's a link for ya:

    http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/63443937621/hey-while-were-talking-about-the-spirit-of-the

    But, just a few days prior, Mark also said: "The Reserved List actually says we won’t print identical cards."

    http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/63119125714/were-trying-not-to-break-the-spirit-of-the

    And, more recently, Mark is at least willing to play around with the concept and consequences of non-functional substitutes as shown here: (FN)

    https://twitter.com/maro254/status/812042770957275137

    The "Spirit" of the RL, to the extent it's even a thing, appears to be applied in an ad-hoc way and is not subject to strict definition. As far as I can tell, it's a feeling-based test about whether a card is just "too close" to another. But, as examples like Helldozer show, even that is not a barrier to printing reasonable substitutes (even improvements) on RL cards.

    FN = You can tell he's being glib and talking off the cuff because his idea, Snow Duals, actually does violate the stated RL policy. So, we don't take this TOO seriously, I don't think. He's just thinking out loud.



  • https://twitter.com/maro254/status/812042770957275137

    Do Snow Duals fix the problem or do the best decks just have both?

    They have some sort of strange internal deliberations that they refuse to discuss outside WotC at all, but MaRo has said repeatedly that he hates that Reserve List. If he's asking the question in the first place, advocating specifically and directly for snow duals is almost certainly the best place to focus your energy if you want the List circumvented.



  • @ambivalentduck said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:

    advocating specifically and directly for snow duals is almost certainly the best place to focus your energy if you want the List circumvented.

    Exactly! Kind of. The place you need to put your energy is into new cards that substitute for RL cards. That is precisely the point I'm making in this thread!

    However - Snow Duals specifically don't work. They violate the printed text of the RL. Remember, it says:

    A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness

    So, if you add the supertype Snow to a Tundra:
    Does it have the same card type? Yep.
    Same subtype? Yep.
    Same abilities? Yep.
    Same mana cost? Yep.
    Same power and toughness? Yep, and yep.

    The supertype never enters into it.



  • @maximumcdawg

    But if they supported it tribal duals would be legal because it's a card type not a super type or tub type.

    Elf palace
    Forest swamp tribal elf

    Totally legit under current rules. Mostly better unless people are casting destroy all elf catds



  • @maximumcdawg said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:

    @ambivalentduck said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:

    advocating specifically and directly for snow duals is almost certainly the best place to focus your energy if you want the List circumvented.

    Exactly! Kind of. The place you need to put your energy is into new cards that substitute for RL cards. That is precisely the point I'm making in this thread!

    However - Snow Duals specifically don't work. They violate the printed text of the RL. Remember, it says:

    A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness

    So, if you add the supertype Snow to a Tundra:
    Does it have the same card type? Yep.
    Same subtype? Yep.
    Same abilities? Yep.
    Same mana cost? Yep.
    Same power and toughness? Yep, and yep.

    The supertype never enters into it.

    If you were right they'd have never printed Prairie Stream. Or do you count the drawback as an ability?

    Also, Snow Duals are obviously too close. But Legendary Duals are not IMO.



  • @fsecco said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:

    @maximumcdawg said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:

    @ambivalentduck said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:

    advocating specifically and directly for snow duals is almost certainly the best place to focus your energy if you want the List circumvented.

    Exactly! Kind of. The place you need to put your energy is into new cards that substitute for RL cards. That is precisely the point I'm making in this thread!

    However - Snow Duals specifically don't work. They violate the printed text of the RL. Remember, it says:

    A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness

    So, if you add the supertype Snow to a Tundra:
    Does it have the same card type? Yep.
    Same subtype? Yep.
    Same abilities? Yep.
    Same mana cost? Yep.
    Same power and toughness? Yep, and yep.

    The supertype never enters into it.

    If you were right they'd have never printed Prairie Stream. Or do you count the drawback as an ability?

    Also, Snow Duals are obviously too close. But Legendary Duals are not IMO.

    I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding me, or I'm not being clear. I am not saying that Snow Duals would be "too close." I am saying that they violate the strict, black-and-white test set out by the RL. Once again: the specific language of the RL prohibits reprinting "functionally identical cards." That term is defined as follows:

    A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.

    So, if you want to brainstorm a potential new printing, you must ask these questions:

    For each card on the RL:

    1. Does this new card have the same type?
    2. Does this new card have the same subtype?
    3. Does this new card have the same abilities?
    4. Does this new card have the same mana cost?
    5. Does this new card have the same power?
    6. Does this new card have the same toughness?

    If the answer to all of those questions is "Yes," then the card may not be printed. End, full stop. We're done. There's no debate. So, whether or not a card has a new supertype or is in a premium form or whatever is just never even relevant. (Since Legendary is a supertype, too... you can do the math.)

    As to Prairie Stream, that is fine because you can answer "No" to question 3. It has different abilities, just like Steam Vents does. You may consider them "drawbacks," but that is a value judgment; the printed card text defines various abilities which you might see as good or bad.

    Now, if you really want to talk about what is "too close" even if it does pass this test, that's the dark and shadowy world of the "Spirit" of the Reserve List which I can't even venture to comment on except to crinkle my nose like I smelled something bad.



  • I know wizards will never do this, but here is what is would recommend if I had any say in the matter (which I don't)

    People really only seem to want the duals re-printed or removed from the list. Or at least that is the primary focus for getting rid of the list.
    I would recommend reprinting the duals as WHITE bordered reprints/promos. This would still allow the black border duals to retain high value for collectors, while allowing people more access to tournament playable duals. Seems like it would be a good compromise.


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