4 Color Control



  • If Leo is underwhelming, is Green really worth it?

    Abrupt Decay doesn't seem especially well positioned in a metagame of PO and shops.


  • TMD Supporter

    For me the best "green card" was sideboarded grudges. I also like having the ability to pay green to deathrite to gain life, but mine have definitely been mostly grixis. That being said, most of my testing has been against various shops flavors and a litte bit of mentor-esque decks, and little time spent on combo, which may make Leo better overall.

    Green also gave me ramunap excavator which makes the strip mine main and 2x wastelands in the side better for me.



  • That mana base seems unlikely to reliably cast Drain when you want/need it. Badlands and Bayou really gum up your draws to get Drain on line on turn 2. You also have only 5 total Blue lands, making DRS your only real option to cast anything with double blue in it. A single Revoker on DRS can completely shut you out of a game, not to mention how often an early DRS will be Misstepped. I would recommend easier to cast counters like Spell Pierce, or even a Misdirection if continuing on the 4 color path.

    Edit: I can also confirm that TNN is simply a house in Vintage. no one has a plan for it... that being said, it's pretty sad in anything other than creature matchups/Control since Combo can just go over the top.



  • Really appreciate the responses, everyone!

    @garbageaggro said in 4 Color Control:

    I have been playtesting a 4c Leo + Kess deck too. I have found leo kind of lacking, but kess has felt really amazing. How have you felt about leo generally?

    I haven't played him against a Vintage deck yet, however his principle purpose in Legacy against cantrips is the same. He seems especially better in Vintage, though, no? The draw spells are about as plentiful, but more powerful (Cruise, Ancestral, Dack, Gush, Paradox, Yawgmoth's Will); yet conversely, the creature removal in decks is on average much less.

    What haven't you liked about him? Did he just not shut off enough spells?

    He is also a 3/3. His ability to turn off draw doesn't affect shops, but the second makes plinking creatures/you with ballista really bad. Many shops creatures can just go to combat with him easily as well, and Golem kind of slides past. So i was actually mostly thinking he comes out in that match.

    @morbid-spec said in 4 Color Control:

    If Leo is underwhelming, is Green really worth it?

    Abrupt Decay doesn't seem especially well positioned in a metagame of PO and shops.

    Leo's abilities are very, very strong against Paradoxical/Yawgs Will. I do think a little counter magic might come in instead of Abrupt for those decks. You don't really want to be on the plan of "Opponent casts Paradoxical targeting 6 permanents, abrupt decay, they draw 5 instead".

    Seems okay against shops though, no? You still want to remove their stuff, and much of it fits the <3cmc criteria. It's no Split Second card, but Krosan Grip just costs too much.

    Or maybe i will play Krosan Grip just because no one expects it.

    But just as a catchall, it is a great card. Removal that kills Jace VP, Dack Fayden, Mentor, Young Pyro, Delver, Ravager, Inspector, Revoker, Ballista, Cage, Oath, Revoker, Time Vault, perhaps defense grid and any of the hatebears/ww.

    @enderfall said in 4 Color Control:

    That mana base seems unlikely to reliably cast Drain when you want/need it. Badlands and Bayou really gum up your draws to get Drain on line on turn 2. You also have only 5 total Blue lands, making DRS your only real option to cast anything with double blue in it. A single Revoker on DRS can completely shut you out of a game, not to mention how often an early DRS will be Misstepped. I would recommend easier to cast counters like Spell Pierce, or even a Misdirection if continuing on the 4 color path.

    It's 5 blue lands, 6 fetches, a mox, not including Deathrites is 12 cards in deck that can 'get' blue. Looking at it that way, i can see how 1 in 5 cards is not enough for double blue often.

    If i were to play Drain the way i am, are there edits to lands you would think would be better? Should the Bads and Bayou be a Volc and Trop, for example?

    I don't have an issue with getting 3 blue in Legacy (that's not to say i play spells of triple blue requirement, that's how i fetch in anticipation of wastelands, before i bring out the bads/bayou), but my mana there is 7 fetches, 7 blue duals, and 1 basic island. That's 15 cards that 'get' blue and i face wasteland. However, it is more cantrip heavy since Brainstorm and Ponder are unrestricted, so a little easier to find lands when need be than in this build where my cantrips are minimal comparatively.


  • TMD Supporter

    I think my main issue is with leo has been, that he is just slow in the matchups I want him, or my opponent is playing a fair amount of removal. So in the case of paradoxical the 3 different mana pips, makes me feel like they are already drawing a ton of cards before i get him in play. Against mentor, they jsut have the removal spells, and they otherwise don't care all that much about my creatures, because their velocity is so much higher than mine they are going to find their win conditions faster. I like kess in that much because she out values them at some point, and is really good when you are casting her. Basically she feels like playing JTMS used to for me. Against paradoxical, I think i would rather have a lower cc creature that either provided some disruption, or just some discard spells to take away their high impact spells. Null rod also helps a lot.



  • @garbageaggro What have you been running into most for removal? Basing off decklists, stuff like mentor control seems to be playing a couple Swords and a red blast.


  • TMD Supporter

    3+ swords, 1+ pyro and multiple snapcaster/jvp amount to a fair amount of removal against leo, especially when they have mentor and young pyros to blank most of my other creatures.



  • @garbageaggro What do you think you would prefer to be doing in that case? He still blanks their draw spells until doing so, and draws you a card for your trouble? I mean i don't think getting to draw a card off the trade is really all that bad, since they go down a card. You want something with an ETB or something like True Name for evasion instead?
    Do you like Leovold against all the combo? (paradoxical bargain?)


  • TMD Supporter

    I haven't run into a lot of combo yet, so I admit that is probably coloring the appeal for me. But against mentor and shops, he has just felt very medium. I just would rather cast something worth potentially more cards that is better when there is a board full of stuff. So far for me that has been kess, or alternatively more/another planeswalker.



  • Current build.

    Moved away from Consecrated Sphinx, it was fun but i wasn't playing enough lands to get there, even with Drain.

    Speaking of, took out Drain and added a couple lands (blue duals). Still have Bayou and Badlands. They just feel so flexible, having 4 colors on 2 lands, and being able to Abrupt Decay or Abrade if i want both open on turn 2.

    3 Dacks right now, but thinking about making one a Mind Sculptor again, or another Notion Thief. I do like where i am at, and not having too many dead cards against shops Game 1.

    Still not on the Preordain train. I like having extra power cards. I don't know necessarily that my thinking is right, but sometimes it just feels like not enough win cards, even if you see them on time sometimes they just get blasted away. So i have a little more raw power "do something" spells that don't simply filter. And i am also on 3 Dacks right now.

    Playing with a Life From the Loam in the sideboard, i got to toy around with that against white eldrazi hatebears.

    Has anyone experimented with any card similar to Izzet Charm? I don't know what else exists, and i don't necessarily think Charm is superb. But i love the flexibility, and i would love a card that can counter a spell or remove a permanent. Seems like it rocks with Kess, too, but at the moment i am not going to test this.

    Murderous Cut over Dismember? Was hesitant about 3 delve spells, but.

    Sideboard is still the most confusing part of my life.


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