Prison-style Workshop deck viable post thorn-restriction?
Thanks for the suggestions, duderinos. I suspected, as some of you noted, that the lock pieces might not be dense enough to contain blue. I do like that decklist, but suspect it prob does suck against anything with access to Hurkyl's.
I'm actually going to have to work on a MUD prison deck very shortly. I have a feeling it won't be as consistent as an aggro deck, but I'm willing to spend the time to make it as optimal as it can be for old times sake.
I think you have to start with 4x null rod, 4x e-bridge, honestly. The beatdown decks are too fast and efficient, and then there's always oath swinging overhead with huge fatties. Bridge should do well at stalling humans, delver, oath, dredge (if you can dump fast enough a la bazaar/uba stax maybe?), and eldrazi. Balista/ravager is a quick clock as well as a non-attack win, so null rod is huge. Rod also stops paradoxical storm. If you are running revoker and spyglass (both great ideas for a prison style), you should be running 3x crucible with up to 9 strip effects. Crucible is also key with smokestack. Vs hurkyls, you have access to witchbane orb and orbs of warding, so I don't think you're terribly vulnerable to be hurked later game. If they do it turn 1-2, they're really just tapping out to pull up 1-2 artifacts plus your moxen. If they don't do it until turn 3, odds are you have an orb on the ground. Orbs also shut down oath and storm (can't target you). I'd think a solid prison list would look like:
4x sphere of resistance
3x tangle wire
4x null rod
4x ensnaring bridge
2x sorcerous spyglass
1x sol ring
5x mox (I'd eschew crypt and lotus with 4x null rod)
3x mishra's factory
3x ghost quarter
1x strip mine
4x ancient tomb
4x mishra's workshop
1x bazaar of bagdad
4x witchbane orb
2x Uba Mask
1x pithing needle
3x kill switch (you aren't aggro, you don't care if your stuff is tapped)
3x grafdigger's cage
2x - whatever
The goal, as most prison decks have, is to lock things up until you get a hard lock, then sacrifice your e-bridges and beat down with the few creatures you do have and manlands (much like a landstill deck).
@The-Atog-Lord played this list to top 8 at eternal weekend 2016 http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13958&d=282651&f=VI
It would be a good starting point.
I've been testing Null Rod and I'm really not liking it. I'm gonna give Ratchet Bomb another whirl since it can actually kill the moxen, albeit symmetrically. The fact that it can also kill zombie tokens (and ballista) right away, as well as be amped up to kill an Oath makes it pretty appealing.
Kill Switch seems like an amazing sb card vs MUD aggro. Nice.
That list from 2016 has 3 extra slots once you take out the Thorns. Since it runs Bazaar, I'm curious if Buried Ruin would be a good card for it. Bazaars always have been clunky for me in MUD, so I'm not a fan.
Yeah, I've always wanted to fit Kill Switch somewhere in a deck. That and Mana Web. I've brewed up a 5-color Stax build with some unusual choices, which I would consider running Kill Switch in, if it weren't for the fact I'm running Null Rod already. Between shutting down Moxen, Ballista, Belcher, Helm, Grindstone, Time Vault, etc., I've come to consider it irreplaceable. Multiples suck though, which is why I run a tutor package.
@dr-j Hmm I wonder how Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth works with Mana Web. Only problem is that they can still use all the mana from their lands so I'm not sure Mana Web is a good card.
Oh, I don't think it's good in Stax. It's just an artifact I always thought had potential, but never found much of a use for. Many years ago you could use it in control decks to hamper your opponent's ability to use countermagic.
I'm not really sure Stax/prison is super viable when it's missing 3 Lodestones, 3 Thorns, and 3 Chalices.
That being said, Ratchet Bomb seems pretty good so far. Also I would recommend players trying to lock out their opponents add in Rishadan Port. When used during their upkeep, it's essentially another sphere effect for non-instant speed spells. They've always been awesome for me.
People can doubt it, but Expedition Map is pretty solid. You should be running at least 3 Crucibles anyway, and they find your Strip or Wasteland for a low investment. For 3 mana you can get another Workshop to break even....or better yet get your Tolarian Academy. I don't like it (because I find it less consistent), but Map allows for running singleton utility lands if that's your preference.
Anyone else have any thoughts?
I've been using Expedition Maps in a recent Stax build. It's been fantastic. Usually I'll just get Strip Mine for an early basic land, but getting Tolarian Academy has been game breaking multiple times.
@senor_bisquick What list are you currently using?
Below is the most recent version of what I've been playing. My formal testing has consisted of three leagues and a local paper event, which has culminated in the middling record of 11-7-1. A few cards have varied across the lists, but the core has remained steady.
There's definitely room for improvement, but I am also certain that this is NOT the best thing to be doing with your Mishra's Workshops. Like you, I simply have an unhealthy fixation on prison shops these days.
Expedition Map Stax
mana rocks (8)1 Mox Jet1 Mox Ruby1 Sol Ring
Generally, Expedition Maps for me have been expensive, colorless sinkholes, although I also use them for acceleration frequently to enable early plays. With all the basics around these days, getting a Strip Mine has often been game-breaking with or without Crucible. They are also an excellent enabler for Karn via getting Tolarian Academy.
Dunes of the Dead let's you keep a Smokestack at 2 with a Crucible out. Even without Crucible, it can allow you to keep a ramped Smokestack around a little longer. It also doubles as a finisher if you keep Smokestack at 1. Overall I've been pretty happy with it as a singleton.
Sadly, I've recently cut Tangle Wire, which has historically been one of my favorite cards. Without a reasonable clock on the board, they just don't do enough even with the synergy with Smokestack.
@senor_bisquick Thanks for the list. I'll post one soon enough.
The counts are a bit off, for example the Ancient Tomb is in the Business section and there are 8 Mana Rocks listed.
And yes I agree, Stax/Prison MUD isn't probably optimal right now but I do feel it's still a viable option despite that fact. Stax decks will always be my baby. I loved the consistency since that made up for the lack of card draw these decks were missing.
That being said, I'm not sure why only 3 Smokestacks. To be honest, if they printed another version of that card I'd probably run 2 more copies.
I'm curious, why 1 Keg and 1 Bomb? I would think Bomb is far superior.
Metamorph as a 4 of has always perplexed me. Probably because I'm more proactive though. I generally hate seeing 2 of them in opening hands.
Since you have 3 Maps, why not just singletons of the utility lands like Bazaar and Fair? I'm actually going to test out 4 Maps soon enough. Not like they gave us too many other choices to work with....
Keep up the good fight!
If I'm not mistaken I believe he's running a singleton Powder Keg for the shops mirror and Landstill matchup since it blows up man lands.
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The split between Ratchet Bomb and Powder Keg are for the reasons @DunnyDee articulated. The split is especially important in the Shops matchup; Smokestack against Hangarback Walker is brutal without a way to deal with the remaining tokens and I can't afford to have a single Revoker shut that plan down.
I've settled on three Smokestacks because, in the end, they are often too slow. I would generally prefer to play something that impacts the board immediately and use Smokestack as a kill card. This is why I play four Phyrexian Metamorphs, as I want to maximize the opportunity to duplicate a Revoker or Sphere effect to lock up the game.
I play two Bazaars because it synergizes so well with Bridge and Crucible, and generally speaking, I don't want to tutor for it with Map.
Also I don't play four Maps because although I want to see one early, I can't generally exploit two quickly enough due to the activation cost. Three feels just right.
I just barely missed 5-0'ing a league a few minutes ago. I was 4-0 (8-0 in games) and lost a close game 3 to Oath. I'm starting to like the current configuration.
I play Red shops. I realize it's not tier 1. However I think it's a fairly skill-intensive and fun deck when piloted correctly. Ensnaring Bridge and Null Rod hurts the current meta. Plus Goblin Welder is such a fun card. Cons of the deck include: not blue or Ravager MUD, weak to GY hate, probably less consistent than mono brown stax. At the end of the day, I play it because vintage should be about playing what you like as it's such a unique format.
Anyways, here is my current list.
// Vintage Red Shops
// 60 Maindeck
// 28 Artifact
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Null Rod
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mana Crypt
1 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Uba Mask
// 10 Creature
4 Goblin Welder
1 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sundering Titan
// 22 Land
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Barbarian Ring
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Ancient Tomb
// 15 Sideboard
// 8 Artifact
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Null Rod
// 1 Creature
SB: 1 Ingot Chewer
// 3 Land
SB: 3 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
// 3 Sorcery
SB: 3 By Force
Some maybe cards I want to include are Wurmcoil Engine, Duplicant, Karn Silver Golem, or Steel Hellkite.
I also want to test Sorcerer's Spyglass.
Have a list you're willing to share?
I haven't had much time over the holidays, but here's what I would try:
You could do a 2/2 split with Bomb and Powder Keg. I just prefer that Ratchet Bomb can get rid of Oath which I feel is more of a threat than man lands.
Rishadan Port is another sphere effect. Being a prison style deck, we want as many as possible especially after restrictions. Try it on their upkeep. Use the stack to your advantage and have Port resolve after Smokestack, or before Tangle Wire so you can make sure a creature gets tapped. Good on man lands too.
Karn turns your Smokes, Tangles, and Crucibles into a nice clock.
MUD's main advantage is it's consistency, so I prefer to use as many 4-ofs as I can to achieve this. If I'm putting a singleton card in a MUD deck, you better believe it's because it's restricted.
Bazaar is cute and situationally good , but it's never been amazing outside of UbaStax when put in a Workshop deck from my experience.
Thanks for sharing your list! I am a relatively new acolyte of the Church of Stax, and admittedly have a ton to learn.
I just made the immensely wise decision to spend real money to lease digital Rishadan Ports. I'll try them out in upcoming leagues and see how they fare.
Variants of my above list have continued to be ok. The list breaks at least even with the most represented archetypes except Oath. The Oath match-up is sickeningly abysmal. I am not sure if, or how, it can be solved; if I continue to crash and burn against it I may take a break from the Stax archetype. The Leovold matchup is similarly rough after Game 1; there are just so many two-for-ones.
Regarding Ratchet Bomb and Powder Keg, I think I'd be more likely to use a 3-1, rather than 2-2, split. The biggest reason I prefer the split at all is to mitigate Revoker. The bonus of handling man lands (men land?) is merely a tangential bonus in my eyes. Revoker on Ratchet Bomb has come up often enough that I believe the split is close to essential. Without a way to deal with Hangarback Tokens, Smokestack gets tough to leverage against Shops in my experience (especially in those long games that are so common with this archetype).
Also, I've found Bazaar to be necessary in lists with Ensnaring Bridge. The match-ups where Bridge shines brightest are Shops and Dredge, both of which put on fast pressure. Getting my hand clogged with lands is real, and I often cannot win without Bazaar to lower my hand-size in time. In any case, with Bridge out of the picture, I agree with you.