Help: Understanding doomsday



  • hi all, I was looking for an updated primer on Doomsday with the piles to be used and some other strategies. Does anybody know where I can find this information? many thanks!



  • There are few (free and paid) articles by Steve Menendian (@Smmenen) published on Eternalcentral. These articles spoke about Burning Tendrils and are very well written (with decklist, pictures, lots of sample piles, etc),. They might be a bit out-dated (11/2013) but I dont think the Doomsday piles have changed too much since then.

    Doomsday on EC : http://www.eternalcentral.com/tag/doomsday/
    Burning Tendrils : http://www.eternalcentral.com/product/pitchburningtendrils/

    Actuel decklist (from MTGO) : http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/vintage-doomsday-25057#paper



  • Doomsday probably changes a bit over the next few weeks as Sudden Shock just became very playable. The idea that Maniac is a safe kill game 1 may no longer hold true. In addition, it's fair to assume that most decks will now be running more combo hate. I would actually hold off until we see tourney showings.


  • Administrators

    It's not like removal wasn't common before this. Even Ancestral can kill a Doomsday player that doesn't defend themselves. It's just a hazard of the deck, I think.


  • TMD Supporter

    What served me best is actually not ever memorizing piles; it allows me to come up with some seriously unique ways to win the game; Such as winning through an extirpate randomizing my post-doomsday pile, and winning with a pass the turn, draw hurkyls, pass the turn, hurkyls you pile.

    I have a tournament report that I THINK is on Eternal Central for Champs 2013.

    I can tell you this: Doomsday in my opinion is played best as a Control Deck with a combo finish. And as duck said, Sudden Shock and Notion Thief's values just skyrocketed, so Doomsday probably is a rough call in it's current state. Right now, my list has 3 Doomsday, 1 Treasure Cruise, and 1 Dig through Time.

    I like the Red Splash, btw. Ingot Chewer is huge post-board.



  • I second @Soly -- memorizing piles is not the way to think about it. You end up using the same 5-ish piles over and over again with maybe one or two cards different (swapping a duress for a flusterstorm, or something) in about 90% of cases anyway, so as long as you know the basic piles you should be set for memorizing. The thing to learn is tactics: knowing the ingredients to piles that you need in order to solve certain game situations. Then you identify your constraints in a game and compose a pile to account for them.

    The main things to know are:

    • how much mana do I have access to?
    • how many draws do I have access to?
    • how many land drops do I have?
    • what disruption can my opponent have?

    Then given this information, you can identify what resources you lack and need, and construct your pile to give them to you. Make the pile satisfy exactly the constraints you need, and devote everything else to countering disruption.

    For example, to win with Lab Man you'll need 6 draws and 3 mana at least. If you have a Gush and Gitaxian Probe in hand, and 3 lands in play without another land drop this turn, then 3 of your draws are already accounted for. You need 3 more draws. Ancestral probably does this best for you. So then you need 4 mana total. Get lotus, sapphire, ancestral, lab man, and a piece of disruption.

    One important thing to note here is that extra turns can be thought of as just stand-ins for more mana, land drops, and card draws. Time Walk, for example, can act as a Black Lotus that draws you a card and nets you a land drop if you have 3 tapped mana sources in play when you cast it. If you don't have access to Time Walk, then passing the turn behaves the same way, except with the huge disadvantage of giving your opponent more mana and cards and hence more potential to disrupt you or win. (For this reason, pass-the-turn piles are usually not advisable unless necessary or afforded with multiple pieces of protection.)

    Other points:

    • it's often right to hold onto a gitaxian probe early in the game to use as a zero-mana way to draw into a doomsday pile
    • brainstorm piles are really hard, avoid making them if you can
    • a fetchland can act as a draw spell by fetching a land out of a doomsday pile
    • sensei's top has neat but very complicated interactions with doomsday. Goldfish a few piles with it in play to get used to it.
    • the longer you wait to cast doomsday, the more mana you'll have, and hence the more disruption you'll be able to afford yourself post-dd. Balance this against how much time you're giving your opponent to kill you or lock you out.


  • thanks a lot for the help! really helpful will go through it and try to understand better the deck. Agree my plan is not to memorize piles but to get a good starting point.



  • Another thing to consider is that WBU or BUG Fish with Gushes can already support 2-3 Doomsday and a Tendrils. That gives you an explosive win that comes out of nowhere when you already have a respectable clock and control suite. It's not at all clear that Doomsday needs a dedicated deck and the ability to transition between Doomsday and Thalia gives your opponent a lot of opportunity to misassign roles.



  • @AmbivalentDuck This is a very interesting idea. Have you been playing with any lists, by chance?



  • Random question:

    What happens to doomsday if Gush ends up restricted down the line. Does it just slot more preordain/serum visions and call it go, or is the functionality of the deck critically injured?

    I will fully admit I'm asking from a place of ignorance, but my experiences with Doomsday come entirely from sitting across from it. Gush was frequently key to establishing enough mana to go off, and I'm curious how the deck would fair if it went down to a singleton.



  • @Winterstar I'm not a Doomsday expert, but I find it hard to imagine that the deck would be very strong if Gush were restricted. It would probably be playable, but weak. It might look more like Legacy Doomsday.


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